DACs vs Turntables

[hermit]

Does anyone here believe that a relatively modest but superb measuring DAC can outperform a top turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage combination? For the sake of argument let's say the whole vinyl front end cost £8-10,000 or more.

If so, I'd be interested to learn what analogue equipment you own or owned and which modest DAC was good enough to better or equal your expensive analogue gear.

I'd also be interested to learn if you considered yourself to be an objectivist or a subjectivist.

 

[booja30]

I'd also be interested to learn if you considered yourself to be an objectivist or a subjectivist.

Hold on, I've got to make some popcorn.

 

[Whaleblue]

Does anyone here believe that a relatively modest but superb measuring DAC can outperform a top turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage combination that cost, for example, £8-10,000 or more?

Yes.

If so, I'd be interested to learn what analogue equipment you own or owned and which modest DAC was good enough to better or equal your expensive analogue gear.

Lots.

I'd also be interested to learn if you considered yourself to be an objectivist or a subjectivist.

Subjectively, I consider myself an objectivist.

 

[hermit]

Lots.

Thanks for replying. I'd be grateful if you could expand on the equipment in question as per my OP.

 

[Whaleblue]

OK, aside from being an arse, I do have something to offer.

I’ve heard a few expensive turntables (not £8k though), and owned a few slightly more modestly valued TT setups. They can sound very nice.
(edit: My last/best setup was:
https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/classic-301-in-black-20/
With SME312 arm and Lyra Kleos
Phono stage was the magnificent Paradise

Thinking about it, that was an £8k setup!)

I’m currently listening to my digital setup, which uses a Media PC (running W10) with a “high-end” DAC card which cost around £300 (edit: £200 or so https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00JF6RO7C/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21 ).

No TT playing the same mastering of a given recording will better this.

 

[Tony L]

Mastering > format every time and hardly ever are you comparing an exact like-for-like. That is the one thing I really wish I could get across here, i.e. very often the vinyl issue and CD issue of a title are mastered by different mastering engineers at different mastering suites using different monitors etc. It just isn’t the same. This is before we get to specific masterings, which for many titles there can be a bewildering array. I strongly advise folk experiment here, buy a few copies of a record you can regularly find in a bargain bin and see just how different say an A1 matrix can sound from an A3 or whatever. How different the UK copy sounds to the US, Italian etc. It can be staggeringly different, i.e. Rega P3 to Rockport difference! Same with CDs, there can be 30 or more different masterings for some titles, and they most certainly are not created equal.

By saying that I’d say neither my vintage TD-124/3009/MP-500 or DPA PDM3 are humiliated by the other’s presence. To my ears they both play at around the same basic performance level and each can beat the other depending on what specific masterings are being compared. As an example I was fiddling with the deck setup the other week and I spent a bit of time comparing a UK 1st press of Steely Dan’s Gaucho with the first Japanese CD issue (VDP 26, widely regarded to be the best available digital). In this case I felt the record won, but not by much. I just preferred it as it sounded a bit bigger and more punchy, but both were good as they should be. Other comparisons can be absurd, e.g. try comparing an original US Blue Note LP to the RVG Edition CD and prepared to be floored!

 

[hermit]

I’ve heard a few expensive turntables (not £8k though)

Thanks for adding to your first post. It is much appreciated. I would be interested to learn what vinyl equipment was supplanted.

Just to clarify, the £8-10k+ was for the whole vinyl front end not just the turntable. I'll edit my OP.

 

[Whaleblue]

Thanks for adding to your first post. It is much appreciated. I would be interested to learn what vinyl equipment was supplanted.

Just to clarify, the £8-10k+ was for the whole vinyl front end not just the turntable. I'll edit my OP.

See edits

 

[hermit]

Mastering > format every time

I completely get this Tony but I am really interested in why some people move from high end analogue to digital and specifically in what modest or even not so modest DACs were able to convince them to change.

 

[Whaleblue]

I completely get this Tony but I am really interested in why some people move from high end analogue to digital and specifically in what modest or even not so modest DACs were able to convince them to change.

For me, I enjoyed the TT hugely. It also allowed the choice of the vinyl mastering when that bettered the digital.

I sold the vinyl rig to @Weekender , who enjoys it to this day (I hope!), when it became clear I was taking over too much of the house. Much as Mrs Wb tolerates this hobby, in the house we were in I was just being selfish to take over so much.

Now I’m stuck with digital only, but as I don’t major on Blue Note it’s not too much of an issue.

 

[westsounds]

They are nothing alike. There's none that even resemble analogue imo. But theres a few that hint analogue sound without sounding too digital. Trichord Research Pulsar I found to be one, but can't emphasise enough it's not like listening to vinyl although strangely is does remind me of it.

 

[hermit]

They are nothing alike. There's none that even resemble analogue imo.

This has been my experience to date but I have an open mind.

 

[hermit]

I don’t major on Blue Note

I do.

 

[Whaleblue]

This has been my experience to date but I have an open mind.

I ripped a couple of vinyl albums from the rig described in my more helpful post above.

They sounded exactly as heard during the recording when played back by my digital source.

Keep that mind open!

 

[Whaleblue]

I do.

I’m guessing you’re considering this path of vinyl to digital yourself?

Then rip them (use a decent s/h ADC around £hundreds) and you will have captured their goodness! Once done, sell on the ADC.

 

[westsounds]

I've heard some good high res vinyl rips as well. It does give you a picture of vinyl but a digital one. They're not that bad actually I was quite impressed.

 

[hermit]

I’m guessing you’re considering this path of vinyl to digital yourself?

No. I love everything about my vinyl front end and hope to keep it until I am too infirm to use it safely. As I have spent all the money on it, I am keen to find a modest dac that will allow me similar levels of enjoyment at a fraction of the cost. Currently using an Yamaha WXC50 as a streamer with an Audiosector NOS dac. They're alright for browsing Tidal for prospective record purchases but not good enough to make me fancy a night of digital only.

 

[sq225917]

My turntable setup suffers from many ills that my dac does not, speed instability, rumble, tracing error, mono'd bass etc etc. It's a Benz LP, Kuzma Stabi S 12", and paradise phonostage with an optical tacho controlled dc tt psu. Probably weighs in around £9,0000 all told.

My dac simply sounds better, however there's no comparison between the enjoyment that comes from handling the storage medium, enjoying the cover art and sleeve notes and the visual theatre of it doing its thing vs the sight of 5hitty little Pixelated facsimiles of cover art scrolling up and down a soulless six inch screen.

But I'm not kidding myself into thinking the vinyl sounds better, close your eyes, forget the drama and physicality of the thing and its just not as good, not as accurate, not as faithful. If I had to give one of them up I'd bin the dac off without a second thought. I mean come on, how many times have you told your mates the tale of that time you went online and downloaded an album in three minutes from an anodyne website served up from a faraway data centre, like never...

 

[hermit]

(edit: My last/best setup was:
https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/classic-301-in-black-20/
With SME312 arm and Lyra Kleos
Phono stage was the magnificent Paradise

Thinking about it, that was an £8k setup!)

Lovely setup you had there WB. I think you must love Mrs WB a great deal. Unfortunately your soundcard won't work for me as I won't countenance a computer as a source. Not for sq reasons but because too often there was some windows update or other computer niggle getting in the way of my enjoyment.

 

[hermit]

My turntable setup suffers from many ills that my dac does not, speed instability, rumble, tracing error, mono'd bass etc etc. It's a Benz LP, Kuzma Stabi S 12", and paradise phonostage with an optical tacho controlled dc tt psu. Probably weighs in around £9,0000 all told.

My dac simply sounds better, however there's no comparison between the enjoyment that comes from handling the storage medium, enjoying the cover art and sleeve notes and the visual theatre of it doing its thing vs the sight of 5hitty little Pixelated facsimiles of cover art scrolling up and down a soulless six inch screen.

But I'm not kidding myself into thinking the vinyl sounds better, close your eyes, forget the drama and physicality of the thing and its just not as good, not as accurate, not as faithful. If I had to give one of them up I'd bin the dac off without a second thought. I mean come on, how many times have you told your mates the tale of that time you went online and downloaded an album in three minutes from an anodyne website served up from a faraway data centre, like never...

Thanks for your reply. I'd certainly agree that vinyl is a joy to handle. Also I find it is a pleasure to collect records. It's hard to take pride in a hdd of flacs or a collection of Tidal favourites or playlists.

Please can you tell me which DAC bests your lovely turntable rig.