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Can we hear anything, allowed to hear anything, or are you deaf/stupid?

clivem2 said:
Tony has mooted having two rooms before. One for objectivists and the other for subjectivists. Maybe this is a way forward but it is extreme. Good debate needs wide interaction...but it also needs balance. Points once or 10 times made should not be made 100 times.
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The 'Wam, when it was merely just a shadow of it's former self, rather than the empty shell of it, tried that. Neither faction could help themselves from spoiling the other sides fun, it was an utter waste of electrons and of the beleaguered (at that time) Mod team's time.
 
Rob998 said:
The 'Wam, when it was merely just a shadow of it's former self, rather than the empty shell of it, tried that. Neither faction could help themselves from spoiling the other sides fun, it was an utter waste of electrons and of the (at that time) beleaguered Mod team's time.
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I suppose ultimately just a very few spoil it for the many.
 
Hi,
On the What Hifi forum, a person stated in their thread title that only subjective views are required. Everyone adhered to this request, and no objectivists commented. This seems a simple solution.

Regards,
Shadders.
 
honestly -i've NEVER found specs to tell me ANYTHING useful about how a hifi product actually SOUNDS ...and after discovering some products with inferior specs that sounded far better than the high-spec'ed kit that i'd been chasing I pretty much learned to ignore it altogether. But i find it oddly touching, the spec warriors who cling so desperately to their numerical gods
 
Shadders said:
Hi,
On the What Hifi forum, a person stated in their thread title that only subjective views are required. Everyone adhered to this request, and no objectivists commented. This seems a simple solution.

Regards,
Shadders.
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Perhaps all the Objectivists had left by then?
 
seems to me language is awfully useful for describing experiences - why should this not be so with hifi?
 
clivem2 said:
I suspect the problem then becomes “we are happy to speak in general terms about our advantages but if we are too specific we risk giving away our technical secrets”. Commerce meeting science...or not.
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This exactly encapsulates why I’ve become embroiled in these debates. If measurements have been taken, by anyone, that show improvement in any form, it is in the interests of those parties to make them public. If measurements show nothing or have not been made at all then it is pure subjectivism, which is fine but should never then be dressed as anything other.
 
G T Audio said:
Music is like good sex. So how do you measure good sex? You might think the sex is good, but your partner might think its rubbish. The measure is how it makes YOU feel. The only measurement you might find that remotely describes sex is by Charles Richter... ;)
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badger748 said:
Only you could turn music into sex. The Barry White of PFM.
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Can't believe there's been five pages since those posts, in a thread on subjectivism/objectivism, and no-one's mentioned Floyd Toole.
 
Alex S said:
This exactly encapsulates why I’ve become embroiled in these debates. If measurements have been taken, by anyone, that show improvement in any form, it is in the interests of those parties to make them public. If measurements show nothing or have not been made at all then it is pure subjectivism, which is fine but should never then be dressed as anything other.
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When you make decision on how something sounds, how do you do it?

One could even argue that a file full of perfect measurement could equally distort an opinion and create bias, so where does true judgement of what we’re hearing really lie?
 
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clivem2 said:
Apologies if I’ve misrepresented you. I possibly erroneously recalled splitting rooms for objectivists and subjectivists was mentioned even if never being an reasonable option. This debate to my mind seems quite reasonable for now...
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No worries at all. I don’t recall any such discussion (which doesn’t mean much these days!) and to my mind I’ve always attempted to keep pfm in the centre-ground, though these days I live in the ‘classic’ room so miss a lot. From the outset this has been a fairly technical site, the DIY room arrived early in the site’s development, a fair bit of stuff has been designed here, many of us have documented quite complex restorations of vintage kit etc, but the site is still rooted to a considerable degree in the ‘80s ‘flat earth’ subjectivist mindset growing as it did out of the Naim forum after Julian’s death. As such we will continue to happily straddle the fence and I would advise those who really can’t handle that simply migrate to somewhere like HydrogenAudio (100% objectivist) or Art Of Sound (subjectivist). There are lots of alternates out there. pfm is in the centre-ground to my eyes, hopefully with a strong ‘green/environmental/right to repair’ activism to it too that may be missing elsewhere. But if that isn’t anyone’s thing I’d far prefer they just went elsewhere rather than trolling/causing friction.
 
The Wigwam actually achieved this split a few years back. It was not that wonderful for sensible debate, but did have some effect on the loons, some of whom buzzed off elsewhere where shouting was more the norm.
 
stevec67 said:
So it looks like you think it's OK for you to sneer at objectivists by using language like this, when we know it's not OK for obj to sneer at subj listeners. Let me tell you, no it's not OK. Your comments are just as crass.
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like i said - i find it somehow touching ... everyone has their own gods. are the 'objectivist gods' not 'numerical'? you're welcome to rename them.
 
Alex S said:
All lovely sentiments but complete waffle. I too hope to be polite and well mannered, have no expertise in this field. I simply ask for some evidence, any evidence, as to how this sonic voodoo works, precisely because of my lack of expertise.
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One of the first manufacturers of these USB regenerator devices was Uptone Audio with their USB Regen. Here is a link to the explanation they provide as to why these devices can produce an audible improvement

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone_REGEN_tech_summary.pdf
 
Alex S said:
This exactly encapsulates why I’ve become embroiled in these debates. If measurements have been taken, by anyone, that show improvement in any form, it is in the interests of those parties to make them public. If measurements show nothing or have not been made at all then it is pure subjectivism, which is fine but should never then be dressed as anything other.
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I get why you say that.

The manufacturer might be hiding behind commercial sensitivities due to their BS but they might also be genuine. Copying is so very rife we can’t know easily which is the reason for hiding the technical details. Publishing specs gives massive clues about what has been implemented.
 
Alex S said:
This exactly encapsulates why I’ve become embroiled in these debates. If measurements have been taken, by anyone, that show improvement in any form, it is in the interests of those parties to make them public. If measurements show nothing or have not been made at all then it is pure subjectivism, which is fine but should never then be dressed as anything other.
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interesting point - i didn't even consider that
 
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