Can we hear anything, allowed to hear anything, or are you deaf/stupid?

[Cereal Killer]

It's become very apparent to many PFM members that we cannot talk about the way a system sounds anymore without someone coming up with some pseudo measurement mantra.

Why is this.... are our ears good at listening to graphs, plots and specs?

Why is it the same 10-12 people who come to stomp on anything beyond their own comprehensions?

Why is it then they find the need to try and ridicule members with passive aggressive BS?

 

[badger748]

I use my ears as a tool to tell me whether i enjoy something, or not. Easy really.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Can it really be that easy.......... don't we need to be wearing white coats and have clipboards with printed out copies of what we should be listening for?

 

[badger748]

Haha, yes CK - it can be as easy (or as difficult) as you want it to be. My room isn't acoustically perfect as it's also a 'living' room, we all use. Some of my kit i'm sure doesn't measure as well as others. Hell - i'm not perfect, my hearing is very selective, esp. when being nagged. But you know what, all that matters is, i like the kit i chose and bought and i like the noise ot makes. Sit back and enjoy.

 

[stevec67]

Why is this.... are you ears good as listening to graphs, plots and specs?

Neither your ears nor mine are analytical instruments and everything they detect is filtered through a really, really unreliable grey computer that doesn't work the same from one day to the next.

I might as well ask "Why do some people think that their ears and brains are in any way reliable as listening devices?"

 

[narabdela]

It's become very apparent to many PFM members that we cannot talk about the way a system sounds anymore without someone coming up with some pseudo measurement mantra.

Why is this.... are you ears good as listening to graphs, plots and specs?

Why is it the same 10-12 people who come to stomp on anything beyond their own comprehensions?

Why is it then they find the need to try and ridicule members with passive aggressive BS?

“pseudo measurement”?

“beyond their own comprehension(s)”?

Not helpful phrases if you want to present a balanced point of view.

 

[Cereal Killer]

@stevec67 What else you gonna use then?

 

[stevec67]

@stevec67 What else you gonna use then?

I'm saying that your measurement system is crap, so you can't talk about "fidelity". If you don't have a reliable measure then you can talk about "enjoyment" all you like, be my guest, but you can't suggest that anything measured with an elastic tape measure is "accurate". Hifi enthusuasts like to talk about "accurate", don't they?

 

[Cereal Killer]

My measurement of what i hear is calculated in levels of enjoyment. its very old school, analog even... even though my music is all stored digitally.

 

[Darren L]

I use my ears as a tool to tell me whether i enjoy something, or not. Easy really.

Can it really be that easy.......... don't we need to be wearing white coats and have clipboards with printed out copies of what we should be listening for?

Exactly @badger748
Yes @Cereal Killer simple as that really, we use our eyes, ears, nose , etc to know whether we enjoy the sight, sound or taste, not everyone is the same so there's going to be differences.
A piece of electronics that measures well is no indication off whether an individual will like it or not.

 

[marshanp]

...Hifi enthusuasts like to talk about "accurate", don't they?

I prefer "convincing". I (usually) wasn't in the concert hall when the recording was made, so I don't know what is "accurate".

As for recordings constructed by mixing engineers with objectives other than the recreation of an acoustic, there was no "accuracy" at Step 1...

 

[YNWOAN]

I’ve written plenty of purely subjective based equipment comment and not felt browbeaten by those pfm members who hold firmly objective views. Personally, I believe in both the subjective and objective assessment.

 

[Thetiminator]

I particularly love this blind listening test bs.
Are there people out there who (if testing at home) don’t have a couple of tracks that they know inside out, have a listen to the new equipment and decide if they prefer it or not. It’s really not difficult.
1. Is it better?
2. Does the improvement warrant the outlay?
If yes to both, buy it. If no to either, don’t buy it.

Do we have people walking the streets who want new stuff so badly that they’ll convince themselves something is better than theirs just have something new and sparkly? If we do, they haven’t worked hard enough for their money...and dealers should rightly take full advantage

 

[marshanp]

...I believe in both the subjective and objective assessment.

Well, yes; "subjective" is pretty pointless where electronics are concerned (either they meet your needs, or they don't) while "objective" is equally pointless when assessing transducers (too many uncontrolled variables, seldom any valid frame of reference), so each is appropriate in its sphere.

 

[badger748]

Subjective gettng in the way of "best". There is no best, other than what suits you best.

 

[mattgbell]

Do we have people walking the streets who want new stuff so badly that they’ll convince themselves something is better than theirs just have something new and sparkly? If we do, they haven’t worked hard enough for their money...and dealers should rightly take full advantage

"Anticipation is always better than realization."

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I’ve written plenty of purely subjective based equipment comment and not felt browbeaten by those pfm members who hold firmly objective views. Personally, I believe in both the subjective and objective assessment.

I also believe in both objective and subjective assessment and ultimately regard myself as a subjectivist... BUT where I couldn't be more different and more opposed to the OP's views is that I only hear or look for or expect differences where it is possible for differences to exist!! What I oppose with every atom of my being is this notion some have of "so long as I have zero knowledge of electronics, acoustics and mechanical engineering and have no intention of learning then I can claim absolutely anything, no matter how ridiculous, no matter if it's against the laws of physics even, and insist that I'm right and every engineer, physicist, scientist and all text books are wrong".

 

[Bob McC]

It's become very apparent to many PFM members that we cannot talk about the way a system sounds anymore without someone coming up with some pseudo measurement mantra.

Why is this.... are you ears good as listening to graphs, plots and specs?

Why is it the same 10-12 people who come to stomp on anything beyond their own comprehensions?

Why is it then they find the need to try and ridicule members with passive aggressive BS?

Many PFM members...
Did I miss the survey?

 

[Cereal Killer]

Many PFM members...
Did I miss the survey?

No

 

[Bob McC]

So how many is many?

Is it an objectively sourced number
Or a subjective feeling?

 

[stevec67]

Do we have people walking the streets who want new stuff so badly that they’ll convince themselves something is better than theirs just have something new and sparkly?

Yes, absolutely we do. That's what luxury retail is based on!