Hard times for Linn

[davidsrsb]

B&O used to get bashed by the flat earth HiFi press, because it was both beautifully designed appearance and ergonomics and actually sounded quite good. This was back when a crude box with no controls was meant to be superior.

 

[35451]

FPGAs are not processors but a soup of logic that can be configured. You might configure part of that to be a processor (soft core) or even buy one with a processor attached to some FPGA fabric (hard core) but they are not by default processors. Nor are Xilinx competitors to AMD or Intel, since they don't make processors! FPGAs are very flexible but not necessarily cheap, and would be an expensive and power hungry way to compete with an AMD or Intel desktop processor running a full operating system. This gets quite complex quite quickly but they are best used where you need flexibility in design or bespoke hardware such as a lot of parallel signal processing, or big data word lengths not efficient in a standard processor. They are competitors to DSPs arguably, like TI and ADI beasts ... anyway totally OT but some of the misconceptions ^^^ are way off the mark ...

Forbes, Gartner etc disagree. FPGA< GBUs and CPUs all compete for various types of processing workloads.

Chip makers develop architectures, which span scalar (CPU), vector (GPU), matrix (AI) and spatial (FPGA) and currently require individual code bases, multiple programming languages and different tools/workflows. They are all competing and converging.

But don't take it from me.

https://www.hpcwire.com/2019/08/06/...rket-leaders-launch-server-accelerator-cards/

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/08/07/xilinx_nvidia_intel_amd_summary/

https://medium.com/syncedreview/can...-challenge-the-big-players-in-ai-34b10db2852f

https://www.cbronline.com/news/new-intel-fpga

One can imagine that Linn would be amongst the very smallest of OEMs out there in an industry that focuses on volumes to recoup the huge R&D costs in chip developments, so probably do pay a premium.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

B&O used to get bashed by the flat earth HiFi press, because it was both beautifully designed appearance and ergonomics and actually sounded quite good. This was back when a crude box with no controls was meant to be superior.

Some B&O kit from the 80s and 90s was very beautifully presented but pretty crude under the skin (trust me, I’ve repaired a bit of it)... I’ve always had a secret soft spot for it, even if just for the aesthetics alone. The stuff they make now is beautifully made and of course still looks good, the stuff I’ve heard sounds pretty decent too... but I have only heard the headphones and Bluetooth speakers that I own so I can’t comment on their more expensive stuff.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

You are being obtuse. The point was and is not of functionality - you have demonstrated you confusion on servers etc - that's irrelevant, although it was you who started splitting hairs of server definitions etc.

The point is that the £4000 Linn Streamers contain many the same cheap IT components as many a £100 IT device out there. No big deal if buyers acknowledge that, as the value for owners is in the total package, not the $150 of IT stuff contained therein.

I don’t think I’m being obtuse, I was just trying to get the point across that a Linn DS is incapable of being a server, which you consistently disagreed with. I do agree that they contain industry standard it components, but it really is at individual component level, they have only the hardware necessary to perform their task.

Linn have no interest in making servers at all (unlike Naim who will happily sell you a PC/NAS in a Naim case and charge a gulp inducing price for it), and have always suggested using a NAS or your own PC to do the job. I built my own using some old PC parts donated by my grandad (he’s the real IT whizz in my family), and just hid it in a cupboard, does the job fine.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

i have been surprised at the quality of some of the B&O I have heard. They have a showroom in Bristol, right next to the Porsche dealer ship, which is telling. they deffo do 'lifestyle' very well, but they also have some imressive sounding kit, especially their higher end speakers, which combine form, function and sound good. I had previously been sniffy about them, but i changed my mind on hearing some of the Beoplay speaker range in showroom. Great designs that sound good.

It's where Linn need to compete for the big bucks spenders

I do agree with this, and Linn do seem to be going there, although they haven’t made a huge noise about it. They have just introduced their series 3 wireless speaker that I alluded to earlier, which is targeted straight at the market covered by B&O and Devialet with their phantom range. Initially it’s exclusive to Harrods but will be sold through all willing Linn retailers early next year. I wouldn’t be surprised if it starts appearing in places like John Lewis eventually like the Devialet Phantom and Naim Muso has. It’ll be interesting to see how it competes, it ain’t cheap though, iirc, they’re £2995 each, or if you buy them as a pair, around £5000, but that’s about in line with Devialet.

 

[35451]

I love the design of the A9 satellite dishes

 

[35451]

B&O used to get bashed by the flat earth HiFi press, because it was both beautifully designed appearance and ergonomics and actually sounded quite good. This was back when a crude box with no controls was meant to be superior.

I was a 'basher' , but having heard, not in full audition mode, in the B&O showroom (which is like a trendy hip lounge) I changed my mind.

 

[Rockmeister]

I was always of the opinion that B&O were more focussed on visual design and ergonomics than ultimate sound, but they certainly have made some products that do both, but the cost! Crikey.

 

[nobeone]

Forbes, Gartner etc disagree. FPGA< GBUs and CPUs all compete for various types of processing workloads.

Chip makers develop architectures, which span scalar (CPU), vector (GPU), matrix (AI) and spatial (FPGA) and currently require individual code bases, multiple programming languages and different tools/workflows. They are all competing and converging.

But don't take it from me.

https://www.hpcwire.com/2019/08/06/...rket-leaders-launch-server-accelerator-cards/

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/08/07/xilinx_nvidia_intel_amd_summary/

https://medium.com/syncedreview/can...-challenge-the-big-players-in-ai-34b10db2852f

https://www.cbronline.com/news/new-intel-fpga

One can imagine that Linn would be amongst the very smallest of OEMs out there in an industry that focuses on volumes to recoup the huge R&D costs in chip developments, so probably do pay a premium.

It is true there is convergence, FPGA can compete in some situations with processors and hardware/software co-design is a moving beast.

Your first link says it all "The two FPGA market leaders, Intel and Xilinx ..." I had forgotten Intel bought Altera, so Intel and Xilinx are competitors in the FPGA market because Xilinx and Altera were the two top FPGA manufacturers and Intel bought Altera. This does not extrapolate to an FPGA being a processor, nor to Xilinx competing directly with AMD or Intel on desktop processors, which is what I read in to your earlier post.

I would agree Linn will not be big enough to get special treatment from Xilinx. They will buy through distribution like all but the very largest manufactures. FPGA range from "cheap" say $5 to $1000s ... what is in a Linn I have no idea, my guess closer to a $20-$100 part, perhaps somebody could read the part number and we could have a look. But I doubt any soft core that would likely fit anything that has been in manufacture for a reasonable period of time and cost a moderate amount would impress you much, much more like a PIC microcontroller than a Intel i9.

I have done a little FPGA design work, I was once able to read and write VHDL with ease but it has been too many years now. I have worked with Altera, Latice and Xilinx parts in the past. I have a FPGA designer sat next to me as I type. I don't know everything about everything by any stretch but embedded systems is my work, my life for a few decades, what buys me HiFi, I just wanted to try to clarify the difference between an FPGA and processor that seemed to be all wrong earlier in the thread to be of help in understanding the technologies in a Linn.

 

[35451]

I don’t think I’m being obtuse, I was just trying to get the point across that a Linn DS is incapable of being a server, which you consistently disagreed with. I do agree that they contain industry standard it components, but it really is at individual component level, they have only the hardware necessary to perform their task.

Linn have no interest in making servers at all (unlike Naim who will happily sell you a PC/NAS in a Naim case and charge a gulp inducing price for it), and have always suggested using a NAS or your own PC to do the job. I built my own using some old PC parts donated by my grandad (he’s the real IT whizz in my family), and just hid it in a cupboard, does the job fine.

And I still disagree. The FGPA Field-Programmable bit, means that the chip can be programmed with Java-enabled tools etc, to optimise for particular workloads and enable multi functions. Ergo it is fully capable of being a server.

We can agree that it would be pointless for a pure streamer, but SW tools could easily enable the chip to be a server, should Linn say wish to release an all in one box. So FGPA is a smart route by Linn for future upgrades and product extensions

Here's why Juniper networks are using this approach with their chipsets on network switches, whose prime function is switching - seems daft to have an FGPA chip but,

Andrew Bach, chief architect for the financial services team at Juniper

“We’re essentially providing a mini-server on the switch,” says Bach. “You’ll also see Java-enabled tools for the FPGA module.”

 

[35451]

It is true there is convergence, FPGA can compete in some situations with processors and hardware/software co-design is a moving beast.

Your first link says it all "The two FPGA market leaders, Intel and Xilinx ..." I had forgotten Intel bought Altera, so Intel and Xilinx are competitors in the FPGA market because Xilinx and Altera were the two top FPGA manufacturers and Intel bought Altera. This does not extrapolate to an FPGA being a processor, nor to Xilinx competing directly with AMD or Intel on desktop processors, which is what I read in to your earlier post.

I would agree Linn will not be big enough to get special treatment from Xilinx. They will buy through distribution like all but the very largest manufactures. FPGA range from "cheap" say $5 to $1000s ... what is in a Linn I have no idea, my guess closer to a $20-$100 part, perhaps somebody could read the part number and we could have a look. But I doubt any soft core that would likely fit anything that has been in manufacture for a reasonable period of time and cost a moderate amount would impress you much, much more like a PIC microcontroller than a Intel i9.

I have done a little FPGA design work, I was once able to read and write VHDL with ease but it has been too many years now. I have worked with Altera, Latice and Xilinx parts in the past. I have a FPGA designer sat next to me as I type. I don't know everything about everything by any stretch but embedded systems is my work, my life for a few decades, what buys me HiFi, I just wanted to try to clarify the difference between an FPGA and processor that seemed to be all wrong earlier in the thread to be of help in understanding the technologies in a Linn.

I didn't mention desktop processors, where it could be overkill, although we are seeing GBUs coming to high end desktops/workstations for heavy rendering specialist workloads etc. And Intel will integrate hybrid chips with FPGA/CPU. So its coming.

In the data centre, in switches, in Edge Computers and for Cloud loads, where the chips are becoming ubiquitous there is plenty of traction and Intel are very much the competition, as are Nvidia

 

[linnfomaniac83]

And I still disagree. The FGPA Field-Programmable bit, means that the chip can be programmed with Java-enabled tools etc, to optimise for particular workloads and enable multi functions. Ergo it is fully capable of being a server.

We can agree that it would be pointless for a pure streamer, but SW tools could easily enable the chip to be a server, should Linn say wish to release an all in one box. So FGPA is a smart route by Linn for future upgrades and product extensions

Here's why Juniper networks are using this approach with their chipsets on network switches, whose prime function is switching - seems daft to have an FGPA chip but,

Andrew Bach, chief architect for the financial services team at Juniper

“We’re essentially providing a mini-server on the switch,” says Bach. “You’ll also see Java-enabled tools for the FPGA module.”

I see what you’re getting at but yes, it’s pointless, and if someone did get it to work, I’d expect it would be pretty inefficient. I doubt Linn will ever release another box with built in storage, they did that with the Kivor range, it didn’t do well. Okay that was in large part due to the fact that it was pro install kit and not particularly consumer friendly, but onboard storage is pretty archaic these days anyway. The vast majority of my listening is now from Qobuz!

 

[linnfomaniac83]

I didn't mention desktop processors, where it could be overkill, although we are seeing GBUs coming to high end desktops/workstations for heavy rendering specialist workloads etc. And Intel will integrate hybrid chips with FPGA/CPU. So its coming.

In the data centre, in switches, in Edge Computers and for Cloud loads, where the chips are becoming ubiquitous there is plenty of traction and Intel are very much the competition, as are Nvidia

These are certainly interesting times, CPU and microcontroller/FPGA tech has made incremental improvements over the last few years but the integration of them could see lots of very flexible power packed into a very small and easy to use and energy efficient package.

 

[nobeone]

I didn't mention desktop processors, where it could be overkill, although we are seeing GBUs coming to high end desktops/workstations for heavy rendering specialist workloads etc. And Intel will integrate hybrid chips with FPGA/CPU. So its coming.

In the data centre, in switches, in Edge Computers and for Cloud loads, where the chips are becoming ubiquitous there is plenty of traction and Intel are very much the competition, as are Nvidia

Singled device CPU and FPGA has been out a good few years https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/zynq-7000.html I worked with then in a previous company. But this was bleeding edge Linux on an ARM core tightly bound with FPGA. The idea a Spartan6 you quoted earlier is like an AMD or Intel processor of any variety and can run a java machine ... well I will bow out now you clearly know much more about this than me, I need a new career, one where I know anything about what I do in my day job ...

 

[35451]

I see what you’re getting at but yes, it’s pointless, and if someone did get it to work, I’d expect it would be pretty inefficient. I doubt Linn will ever release another box with built in storage, they did that with the Kivor range, it didn’t do well. Okay that was in large part due to the fact that it was pro install kit and not particularly consumer friendly, but onboard storage is pretty archaic these days anyway. The vast majority of my listening is now from Qobuz!

Me too with Qubuz, and you are correct, on board direct storage doesn't always make sense in a networked shared world. I also use NAS boxes - addresable by any device with a NIC - for my ripped music, of which I have a few (1200 CDs)

Streamed music movies etc are great. Unless internet access poor, or down.

Where it will come together and make sense, is when flash storage hits the capacity and price points currently occupied by HDDs. There is a system called NVMe which combined with flash can give consistent transfer speeds of 4 Gb/sec..

Imagine a 20Tb NVMeflash drive sat on the network with those sorts of performance figures. Or embedded in an all-in-one type box, small, quiet, cool running.

 

[35451]

Singled device CPU and FPGA has been out a good few years https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/zynq-7000.html I worked with then in a previous company. But this was bleeding edge Linux on an ARM core tightly bound with FPGA. The idea a Spartan6 you quoted earlier is like an AMD or Intel processor of any variety and can run a java machine ... well I will bow out now you clearly know much more about this than me, I need a new career, one where I know anything about what I do in my day job ...

Good idea.

 

[davidsrsb]

Forbes, Gartner etc disagree. FPGA< GBUs and CPUs all compete for various types of processing workloads.
........
One can imagine that Linn would be amongst the very smallest of OEMs out there in an industry that focuses on volumes to recoup the huge R&D costs in chip developments, so probably do pay a premium.

FPGAs are used in small volume designs that don't have the volumes for custom ICs, so Linn would be a typical sized user.
They are therefore fairly expensive and the development tools required are also painful.
This means that Linn have actually sunk a lot of money into the product design.
(I have used FPGAs myself)

 

[linnfomaniac83]

FPGAs are used in small volume designs that don't have the volumes for custom ICs, so Linn would be a typical sized user.
They are therefore fairly expensive and the development tools required are also painful.
This means that Linn have actually sunk a lot of money into the product design.
(I have used FPGAs myself)

Another good reason to use one is for future proofing, if an IC is too custom, there’s a good chance it won’t be compatible with new codecs, Linn for the most part have been able to and have updated their streamers via firmware to accept new codecs and services. No MQA support but that may (or may not) be more to do with the apparent lack of significance or success of the format.

To be honest, there’s actually nothing at all wrong with 16/44.1 PCM, it provides 100dB SNR and 20Hz to 22.5kHz frequency range, do we actually need anything beyond that? I’m pretty convinced that the uprising of “high res” formats is more about re-selling us the music we’ve already bought and of course the hardware to play it on.

 

[Shadders]

Linn have no interest in making servers at all (unlike Naim who will happily sell you a PC/NAS in a Naim case and charge a gulp inducing price for it), and have always suggested using a NAS or your own PC to do the job.

Hi,
I checked the Linn website, and it is difficult to obtain the relevant information. It seems that to use a NAS :

• The PC/MAC/NAS requires UPnP Media Server software to share the Music for the Linn DS/DSM to play.

You need the NAS device to have server software running on it. The Linn system uses the FreeRTOS operating system software - which is open source.

I don't think they are ahead of the curve - they have just created a closed system locking out any third party additions so that they have full control. As such, they are using off the shelf software, running on off the shelf hardware. The FreeRTOS has limitations compared to a Raspberry Pi (Linux), but will be less resource hungry.

I am not sure why you refer to Naim as charging a gulp pricing for their streamer options. Linn offer streamers for nearly twice the price, using software less capable than Naim - Naim offer a better product in terms of functionality, capability and upgradability.

Website used for Linn prices : https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/streaming/linn-dsm-range
Website used for Naim prices : http://www.moorgateacoustics.co.uk/naim-streamers/

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Hi,
I checked the Linn website, and it is difficult to obtain the relevant information. It seems that to use a NAS :

• The PC/MAC/NAS requires UPnP Media Server software to share the Music for the Linn DS/DSM to play.

You need the NAS device to have server software running on it. The Linn system uses the FreeRTOS operating system software - which is open source.

I don't think they are ahead of the curve - they have just created a closed system locking out any third party additions so that they have full control. As such, they are using off the shelf software, running on off the shelf hardware. The FreeRTOS has limitations compared to a Raspberry Pi (Linux), but will be less resource hungry.

I am not sure why you refer to Naim as charging a gulp pricing for their streamer options. Linn offer streamers for nearly twice the price, using software less capable than Naim - Naim offer a better product in terms of functionality, capability and upgradability.

Website used for Linn prices : https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/streaming/linn-dsm-range
Website used for Naim prices : http://www.moorgateacoustics.co.uk/naim-streamers/

Regards,
Shadders.

It’s not the streamers I was talking about, they made a server that was very pricey. And I have no axe to grind with Naim, they make some really excellent products. More my point was that Linn were being jumped on for allegedly making a pimped up pc with an inflated price... even though they haven’t since they discontinued the Kivor Tunebox, whereas naim... https://www.naimaudio.com/product/uniti-core

Explain, what third party options they have locked out? They work with any UPnP media server and have intergration with all major streaming services (Amazon HD excepted which no HIFI streamer does yet), and an endless list of internet radio stations.

PS both Linn and Naim offer a range of streamers at similar price points.