Winter election II

[Seanm]

Letter in the FT:

Economists and academics back Labour spending plans
https://www.ft.com/content/d29b4cbe-0fa4-11ea-a225-db2f231cfeae

'Michael Jacobs, professor of political economy at Sheffield university, who co-ordinated the letter, said it had been surprisingly easy to find economists willing to sign. “The easiest thing for academic economists to do is sit on the fence,” he said, adding that “although academics generally do not go out on a limb, most had been willing to say that the UK faced a big choice and that enough of Labour’s programme accords with their own views”.'

 

[gavreid]

I'll post this link again - hint: there's a clue the somewhere. Read it.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...ire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/

"Jewish members of the Labour Party are arguably in a better position to judge whether the allegations against it are justified. No survey of this group has been published, but it is clear that among them there is, at the very least, disagreement on the question. In written submissions collected over the course of a week in 2018, nearly 150 Jewish Labour members testified that the claims against Labour bore no relation to their own experiences in the party. Prominent ‘Labour antisemitism’-mongers themselves avowed, as recently as 2016, that they had ‘[n]ever experienced any incidence of anti-Semitism from within the party’.* These testimonies are difficult to reconcile with allegations that the party is over-run with antisemitism."

*Chuka Umunna MP similarly testified in October 2016 that ‘I have not seen one incident of antisemitism in almost 20 years of activism within my local Labour Party in Lambeth’. Chuka Umunna, ‘Clause IV Tells Us to Live in “Solidarity, Tolerance and Respect” but Labour Has Failed on Anti-Semitism’, LabourList (16 October 2016).

 

[Fatmarley]

Son just said that he asked his friend at school who he supports (they're only 11). Friend replied "Tory because they are building a load of new hospitals". Thought it best not to comment...

 

[Joe Hutch]

There's a fair bit of stretching points going on. Here's Simon Kelner, writing in the i:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-jeffrey-epstein-anti-semitism-row-pronounciation-1312516

'Ep-Steen. Ep-Schtine. Corbyn. Shmorbyn. Who cares? Why should anyone pay attention to the fact that, towards the end of the televised debate between the main party leaders, Jeremy Corbyn mispronounced the name of the sexual criminal Jeffrey Epstein, Prince Andrew’s former friend? He called him “Ep-Schtine”.

It’s entirely possible, were the Labour leader not in the frame for serial anti-Semitism, that no one would have made a point of his erroneous pronunciation. Politicians get names wrong all the time. But, as the comedian David Baddiel suggested on Twitter, “every Jew watching noticed” that Corbyn had mis-spoken.

[...]

While the mispronunciation of Epstein’s name may not be viewed by the majority of viewers as overtly anti-Semitic, it definitely had a nasty edge. No one is offended on Epstein’s behalf (that would be ludicrous), but if I found it offensive, many, many other Jewish people would have found it more so.

Corbyn is somewhat tone deaf when it comes to the question of anti-Semitism, and this is all about tone. My reaction was a visceral one: it’s not something I can explain easily, or even rationally, but a Jewish person does know when there is something that sounds wrong, or perjorative, or even threatening. It was as if he was saying: “Are you aware this man is Jewish?”'

To my mind, Corbyn pronounced the name the way he did because that's how the most famous Epstein, Brian Epstein of Beatles' fame, pronounced the surname. It's how I would have pronounced it if I'd seen it written down.

 

[Lee T]

The field is quite exceptionally poor. Johnson, Corbyn, and sadly Jo Swinson are clearly unfit for purpose and as such not worthy of my vote. I’ll therefore either stay at home or vote Green (Caroline Lucas is by far the best of the current bunch) despite their not having even the slightest hope in hell in my seat. My hope is that by the following election the Lib Dems will have installed Layla Moran, which is exactly what they should have done this time. At that point I can start voting for them again!

PS To be honest I’m hugely depressed and disillusioned by the whole thing at the moment. The concept of voting in this particular seat is an insult to ones intelligence as any non-Labour vote will never translate into representation under the obviously unfit for purpose FPTP system. It really is a total waste of my time.

Only a waste of one's time if whichever government is in place has little personal effect on one's standard of life. Anything outside a Labour vote at this juncture will ensure a Tory government, of this I have little doubt.

 

[Fatmarley]

There's a fair bit of stretching points going on. Here's Simon Kelner, writing in the i:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-jeffrey-epstein-anti-semitism-row-pronounciation-1312516

'Ep-Steen. Ep-Schtine. Corbyn. Shmorbyn. Who cares? Why should anyone pay attention to the fact that, towards the end of the televised debate between the main party leaders, Jeremy Corbyn mispronounced the name of the sexual criminal Jeffrey Epstein, Prince Andrew’s former friend? He called him “Ep-Schtine”.

It’s entirely possible, were the Labour leader not in the frame for serial anti-Semitism, that no one would have made a point of his erroneous pronunciation. Politicians get names wrong all the time. But, as the comedian David Baddiel suggested on Twitter, “every Jew watching noticed” that Corbyn had mis-spoken.

[...]

While the mispronunciation of Epstein’s name may not be viewed by the majority of viewers as overtly anti-Semitic, it definitely had a nasty edge. No one is offended on Epstein’s behalf (that would be ludicrous), but if I found it offensive, many, many other Jewish people would have found it more so.

Corbyn is somewhat tone deaf when it comes to the question of anti-Semitism, and this is all about tone. My reaction was a visceral one: it’s not something I can explain easily, or even rationally, but a Jewish person does know when there is something that sounds wrong, or perjorative, or even threatening. It was as if he was saying: “Are you aware this man is Jewish?”'

To my mind, Corbyn pronounced the name the way he did because that's how the most famous Epstein, Brian Epstein of Beatles' fame, pronounced the surname. It's how I would have pronounced it if I'd seen it written down.

Obvious smears. I think you'd have to be a bit thick to believe it.

 

[maxflinn]

You can't succeed in preventing a witch hunt/smear campaign, whatever. It doesn't matter what you say or do; the smears will keep coming relentlessly until the person being attacked - in this case Corbyn - is out of the picture.

Nothing Corbyn could have said or done could have prevented the smear campaign. So he hasn't 'failed' to deal with an anti-Semitism crisis, as some put it, he has simply endured a nasty smear campaign, in the best way he could.

The good news from my perspective is I believe most people see it for the smear campaign it is, and won't be put off by it.

This is the best summation of the situation I've came across, put forward by professor Norman Finkelstein. He really does make some excellent points and one really should listen to him if one wants to understand what's going on and why, and the potential repercussions:

 

[Tony L]

Only a waste of one's time if whichever government is in place has little personal effect on one's standard of life. Anything outside a Labour vote at this juncture will ensure a Tory government, of this I have little doubt.

Simply not true, and it never will be in our fundamentally biased first past the post electoral system. Don’t want Tories? Then vote tactically. In huge number of Tory seats Labour come last, so are just as much a wasted vote as say my voting Green in the ultra-safe Labour seat in which I live.

 

[Lee T]

Why does Nicola Sturgeon get a bye all the time ?

She is a leader of a country of only 5 million people. A country greatly funded by the UK as a whole. Some of the major institutions that she has charge of are failing. She doesn't have to run half of the institutions that a fully independent country has to fund.

She is at best the leader of a county council and no more.

Scottish independence would floor her completely.

Hell...anyone can lay out before the electorate the fantasy world that she does but I would like to see her deliver her ambitions for Scotland using the tax take from only 5 million Scots.

The premise of Tony's post was leadership. I feel if she was spouting the words of Corbyn as the leader of the Labour party this election, the country as a whole would have to be crowd controlled on the 12th of December to allow a sensible queue to form to vote for her considering what Labour are offering to broken Britain.

Corbyn is attacked from every corner, hated amongst the propaganda fuelled media & wealthy & does not stand a cat in hell's chance of either holding a majority government or coming close to forming a coalition government.

I have said it a few times here & stand by it, but I have added a new category...….anyone voting Tory are either brain dead or selfish & anyone voting outside of Labour this election are pretty much the same if they complain about Tory rule.

 

[Lee T]

Simply not true, and it never will be in our fundamentally biased first past the post electoral system. Don’t want Tories? Then vote tactically. In huge number of Tory seats Labour come last, so are just as much a wasted vote as say my voting Green in the ultra-safe Labour seat in which I live.

The problem isn't the tactical vote or the selfish vote or the dumb as ass vote. It's the fact the country have decided to hate Corbyn & everything he stands for & what will ultimately lead to another 20 years of Tory right wing rule.

 

[Alex S]

I’m doubting many of the 3 million new registrations are doing it for Gove.

 

[Tony L]

Muslim Council Of Britain has accused the Conservative Party of “deceit over Islamophobia” (Sky news right now), which is at least a start in countering what has always been the real racist party.

 

[maxflinn]

A 2014 article in the Telegraph:

Labour's First Jewish Leader Is Losing The Jewish Vote

Of course said leader was Miliband, and he said Britain ought to recognise a Palestinian state. That was the problem for him. This position led to the ire of the same people and groups now attacking Corbyn.

No accusations of anti-Semitism of course, because he's Jewish.

Corbyn though....

 

[matthewr]

I'm not being obtuse. You made a very specific claim: that the Labour Party "fails to treat Jews as others" - that it is discriminatory. That's part of the MacPherson definition of institutional racism. When I asked you what you based this on you told me to "ask them". Now you're saying that "it was just your general impression". All of this attached to the usual moan about the general quality of Corbyn's leadership. Do you understand that between "institutionally antisemitic" and there being no real problem there are...actual problems? Do you think wading in and throwing sh_t around like this is going to help anyone deal with those problems?

My point was to give my views on nature of the issue based on my impression gained from the wide discussion in the public space for several years and not to make a specific accusation. I was surprised that this was not clear from my post which is what I meant by obtuse.

FWW I also don't find it credible at this point that people are struggling to find complaints about and examples of AS in the labour party (even if they are all turn out to be without foundation).

What I meant by my post was two points:

1) The labour party appears to have an organisational and cultural problem with AS which is different than having the problem of, say, the Tory party which is one of having lots of actual racists.

2) Corbyn is, I think, an unremarkable individual without much in the way of obvious talents and the fact that this problem has persisted for so long is a reflection on his failure to deal with it. This has always been my problem with him rather than his politics and while you might think of it as a "moan" I think of it as a perfectly reasonable criticism of political leader.

I was also just expressing an honest and, I think, reasonable opinion and certainly not "wading in" or "throwing sh_t around".

 

[ks.234]

Louise Ellman on R4 news making claims of antisemitism at her Riverside CLP. Asked for specific examples of antisemitism she couldn’t give any.

Riverside has been in turmoil an influx of Corbyn supporters into the CLP. There are allegations of persistent exploitation of their positions by anti-Corbyn CLP officers in order to block discussion and decision-making by members. Louise Ellman headed the campaign to retain control.

One of those accused of antisemitism was Helen Marks, a British Jew whose ancestors had fled bigotry and violence in Russia and Poland before World War I and whose father had lost most of his extended family during the Nazi Holocaust. She said in response to allegations made against her that, “I feel silencing is what has been happening to people, like myself, critical of Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians, and this has sadly been done by members of the Labour Party who have equated such criticism with antisemitism,”

Full story here

 

[Lee T]

2) Corbyn is, I think, an unremarkable individual without much in the way of obvious talents

Corbyn will be unremarkable to all those he does not represent, such as the average middle class, wealthy pfm member. He does actually care about the vulnerable in this country, which in itself in modern politics, is remarkable.[/QUOTE]

 

[Alex S]

He represented me when I was a lecturer at London Metropolitan University. An obviously thoughtful, caring man, able to listen. In fact, remarkable for a politician.

The difference between him and the glib Johnson is stark and their relative popularity as massive an indictment of the press and feckless (as in couldn’t give a feck) voters as you could have.

 

[Tray]

Totally agree with you and I left the Labour Party because of it, but please do not forget the Tories supported it and would have done exactly the same. Then of course there was Libya.... they aren't fit to be allowed to govern, none of them frankly!

You need dictators
In Arabic countries because it's tribal to many that will never agree So let them get on with it sort them selves out.
Just because America suddenly got a wake up call Nobody likes them because they've fooked up countries and keep telling people what to do.


It's been the same since Jesus cured Lepers without asking if they wanted to be cured and leaving them without jobs.
Money for a X leper ain't a big earner.

 

[sean99]

Only a waste of one's time if whichever government is in place has little personal effect on one's standard of life. Anything outside a Labour vote at this juncture will ensure a Tory government, of this I have little doubt.

Slight modification:

Anything outside of a tactical vote at this juncture will ensure a Tory government

 

[gavreid]

Louise Ellman on R4 news making claims of antisemitism at her Riverside CLP. Asked for specific examples of antisemitism she couldn’t give any.

Riverside has been in turmoil an influx of Corbyn supporters into the CLP. There are allegations of persistent exploitation of their positions by anti-Corbyn CLP officers in order to block discussion and decision-making by members. Louise Ellman headed the campaign to retain control.

One of those accused of antisemitism was Helen Marks, a British Jew whose ancestors had fled bigotry and violence in Russia and Poland before World War I and whose father had lost most of his extended family during the Nazi Holocaust. She said in response to allegations made against her that, “I feel silencing is what has been happening to people, like myself, critical of Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians, and this has sadly been done by members of the Labour Party who have equated such criticism with antisemitism,”

Full story here

It really amounts to Jewish anti-semitism, including jews dismissing fellow jews as self-haters or discounting jewish, socialist views as being irrelevant. Most people wouldn't believe it possible I guess, which is why I feel that otherwise intelligent and questioning people cannot comprehend its existence.