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Vast Brexit thread merge part IV

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I have similar problems, Steven. Of all the people that want to stay and reform the EU, I cannot get anybody to commit to a list of the things they want to address. I tried to give one example of what I would like to change, but it got rebutted as not appropriate or it got ignored. Strange. An efficiency drive is not a bad place to start. Perhaps you could get the ball rolling? After all, I believe I might be the one that did answer your not-quite-all-inclusive list. I was 1 and 9, remember.

If you can't tell me where you want to go, you need to get out of my taxi. Oh, hang on, I don't have a taxi. But anyway, you know what I mean.

So let's hear it.

I think Guy Verhorfstadt had it when he mentioned a two-speed Europe but why only two speeds? It could be three, four or even varimatic.

It is likely that the original six member states would want closer integration, perhaps to the point of being a federal state. Others might be less keen and want a looser relationship. There is essentially a continuum between absolute autonomy/sovereignty at one end of the scale and completely pooled sovereignty with all its associated benefits at the other. I'd like to think that all nations can either individually or collectively find a sensible point between those two extremes, especially the UK, where the debate is binary and extreme. The essential is that greater benefits come with greater commitment and you cannot have one without the other.

I agree that the punitive agenda associated with keeping member states in the tightest of orbits has to go and I fail to see why Cameron's demands in February 2016 were not met as they were perfectly reasonable. The UK taxpayer should not be liable for welfare payments to the dependents, living in their home country, of EU nationals working in the UK The ECJ agreed with his position in early June 2016 but that piece of news was buried under the noise floor of the referendum campaign.

Regarding the EU budget we have to have a sense of proportionality. The UK's contribution is less than 0.5% of its GDP (or just over 1% of fiscal revenue) and less than its voluntary budget for overseas aid (0.7%). Administration represents about 6% of the EU budget total.

Every year HMRC provides PAYE taxpayers with a breakdown on how their taxes were spent. Our EU contributions are at the bottom of the list with things like social security and the NHS at the top. A person on a modal average income pays about 80p a week to the EU.

Not paying that 80p isn't going to make any difference to your quality of life but losing the benefits associated with it will definitely have an adverse impact.

If you travel to the continent on holiday each year, your travel insurance alone will increase by more than your annual contribution to EU funds with the so-called 'clean break' from the EU.

Is it possible/worth it to streamline the workings of the EU? Can savings be made?

I could save £450 per year by not renewing my vehicle and driver licences to be a taxi driver. I would be free from all the bureaucracy, rules and regulations imposed by my local authority. I would then have a choice between plying for hire illegally or delivering fast food for £30 a night minus expenses but at least I'd be free.

Perhaps my local council could be more efficient and reduce my fees. They are not permitted by law to make a profit. I could get licensed by Wolverhampton Council and pay £225 per year and work for U*** 10 or 20 miles from where I live. I'd be working 90 hours per week just to keep my head above water but at least I'd be free to work any 90 hours I chose instead of working to a fixed rota of 40 hours determined by agreement with my local firm.

If the European Parliament didn't move between Strasbourg and Brussels, how much would that save in percentage terms?

What would the political cost be?

If we cut the salaries of MEPs and Commissioners, how much would that save?

Would we still be able to recruit the brightest and best to ensure competence? We need EU legislation which is fit for purpose.

I'm sure with efficiencies we could bring that 6% down to 5. The same could be said for Whitehall but that doesn't seem quite so controversial because it is waste by our own pen pushers and not by Johnny Foreigner.

We could have austerity in the EU and cut structural funds to the poorest regions. Some of those regions are in the UK....

Surely, if these poorer regions are inside the same internal market as ourselves, it benefits us in the long run to bring them up to the same level. If our partners are more prosperous they become a bigger market for our goods and services and we theirs. Former Eastern Bloc countries will not be net beneficiaries for ever. Have you seen their growth rates over the last 20 years?

In terms of political reform I'd like to see the role of the European Commission reduced to that of a civil service. I'd like to see the European Parliament become a bicameral legislature instead. This may cost more but it could be worth it. What price democracy?

The lower house could sit in Strasbourg and the higher in Brussels, or vice versa. Select committees of elected MEPs could be formulating policy at the the behest of the European Council instead of their appointees at the Commission.

The possibilities are endless. The problem is that greater democratic accountability and closer integration go hand in hand. British eurosceptics back in the 1980s and 90s objected to increasing the role of the European Parliament. The same eurosceptics today complain of lack of democracy. This is a contradiction.

Would you rather a law imposed on you that you didn't like by your own government or one that you did like agreed in cooperation (collaberationl) with Johnny Foreigner?

Move away from the sphere of the institutions within the EU, whatever form they may take now and in the future, and you either lose the benefits or a say in those benefits.

The cake either goes in your mouth or it stays on the plate.

One last thing: if you really are bothered by perceived profligacy in Brussels/Strasbourg, stop reading the Express/Mail/Telegraph. I guarantee that in time you will stop giving a shit.
 
Complete equivalence: once in a generation binary vote. Simples.

The EU referendum was not binary as it offered a choice between the status quo and n unspecified future arrangements. They would have been equivalent if the AV vote had offered FPTP vs "Another voting system TBD".

The other big difference was the AV vote had a very strong majority against while the EU vote was very close. The two votes therefore offered very different mandates.


Quite.
 
Forgot to add re the PR/AV referendum in 2012: the assumption made by me at the time, and I suspect most of the voters, was that Parliament would have enacted the result into law had PR/AV received the most votes.

But as we have since found out during our brexit journey and as instructed by the courts, Parliament has the ultimate authority/responsibility for making/changing UK law. So, if PR/AV had received the most votes, it seems unlikely to me that any Government from the two main parties who have been elected by FPTP would have seen it as advisory and thus not legislated to dilute their powers.

Just saying.
 
Quite. And if we leave without a deal, apparently, it'll be postponed until 'they know the impact' according to Radio 4. I thought they already did?

People appear to forget that immediately after the vote the BoE increased QE and reduced interest rates to stave off the damage.

We didn't have a budget right away because we had a new Government who were committed to not making Brexit seem like a 'bad thing.'

The Queens' speech and talk of a budget are just pre-election ruses. I assume Johnson will promise everyone a ...


Stephen
Johnson and a couple of the others must be sobering up now that the threat of no deal Brexit is at hand. The economic devastation will be on their political tombstones and it’ll taint the Tory Party for decades. As for the Brexit Company- it’s a corrupt Trump style insurgency.
 
Forgot to add re the PR/AV referendum in 2012: the assumption made by me at the time, and I suspect most of the voters, was that Parliament would have enacted the result into law had PR/AV received the most votes.

But as we have since found out during our brexit journey and as instructed by the courts, Parliament has the ultimate authority/responsibility for making/changing UK law. So, if PR/AV had received the most votes, it seems unlikely to me that any Government from the two main parties who have been elected by FPTP would have seen it as advisory and thus not legislated to dilute their powers.

Just saying.

Interestingly (well, I think so anyway) as a point of law, the AV referendum was one of legal consequence; it was binding on the legislature.

The EU referendum was not, it was advisory.

We could have made the EU referendum one of legal consequence but I guarantee that you would not have liked the result.
 
The EU referendum was not binary as it offered a choice between the status quo and n unspecified future arrangements.

There were still two boxes. That's binary. As a computer programmer, you ought to know that. You are picking nits.
 
There were still two boxes. That's binary. As a computer programmer, you ought to know that. You are picking nits.

If you think a binary choice between two concrete outcomes and a binary choice between a concrete option and an undefined, multivariate outcome is "picking nits", then I have some binary choices for you to make.
 
The EU referendum was not binary as it offered a choice between the status quo and n unspecified future arrangements. They would have been equivalent if the AV vote had offered FPTP vs "Another voting system TBD".
No, it did not offer anything of the sort.

Here is a link to information about the question. It is clear that the referendum was between remaining and simply leaving, there was never any requirement for the detail of any leave deal to be voted on against remain.

The question was accepted by the electoral commission.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.../eu-referendum/testing-eu-referendum-question

In 2016, the question was " Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union? "
Although "non-binding" the result has not been implemented by the govt, though it was promised it would be.

In 1975, the question was " Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)? "
Although "non-binding" the result was implemented by the govt having been promised it would be.

I don't recall 3 years of whinging by the losers in 1975 even though the "the type of remain" wasn't on the paper. Those that lost accepted it, which is a requirement for our system to function that hard-remainers have shown they have no respect for.

So what is the difference between 1975 and 2016?
Well, apart from social media there appears to be a section of the population that feels entitled to have their own way regardless.

If hard-remainers want to argue that the type of leave deal should be voted on we need a second referendum but with the question being between leaving with no deal versus leaving with <some govt negotiated deal> described truthfully before the vote.
Maybe along the lines of:
"How should the UK leave the European Union"
a) WTO terms
b) <insert some phrase describing the deal "negotiated" by the UK Govt with the EU>
 
No, it did not offer anything of the sort.

Here is a link to information about the question. It is clear that the referendum was between remaining and simply leaving, there was never any requirement for the detail of any leave deal to be voted on against remain.

The question was accepted by the electoral commission.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.../eu-referendum/testing-eu-referendum-question

In 2016, the question was " Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union? "
Although "non-binding" the result has not been implemented by the govt, though it was promised it would be.

In 1975, the question was " Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)? "
Although "non-binding" the result was implemented by the govt having been promised it would be.

I don't recall 3 years of whinging by the losers in 1975 even though the "the type of remain" wasn't on the paper. Those that lost accepted it, which is a requirement for our system to function that hard-remainers have shown they have no respect for.

So what is the difference between 1975 and 2016?
Well, apart from social media there appears to be a section of the population that feels entitled to have their own way regardless.

If hard-remainers want to argue that the type of leave deal should be voted on we need a second referendum but with the question being between leaving with no deal versus leaving with <some govt negotiated deal> described truthfully before the vote.
Maybe along the lines of:
"How should the UK leave the European Union"
a) WTO terms
b) <insert some phrase describing the deal "negotiated" by the UK Govt with the EU>
What's wrong with finding out if we still want to proceed?

What are you afraid of?
 
I think Guy Verhorfstadt had it when he mentioned a two-speed Europe but why only two speeds? It could be three, four or even varimatic.

It is likely that the original six member states would want closer integration, perhaps to the point of being a federal state. Others might be less keen and want a looser relationship. There is essentially a continuum between absolute autonomy/sovereignty at one end of the scale and completely pooled sovereignty with all its associated benefits at the other. I'd like to think that all nations can either individually or collectively find a sensible point between those two extremes, especially the UK, where the debate is binary and extreme. The essential is that greater benefits come with greater commitment and you cannot have one without the other.

I agree that the punitive agenda associated with keeping member states in the tightest of orbits has to go and I fail to see why Cameron's demands in February 2016 were not met as they were perfectly reasonable. The UK taxpayer should not be liable for welfare payments to the dependents, living in their home country, of EU nationals working in the UK The ECJ agreed with his position in early June 2016 but that piece of news was buried under the noise floor of the referendum campaign.

Regarding the EU budget we have to have a sense of proportionality. The UK's contribution is less than 0.5% of its GDP (or just over 1% of fiscal revenue) and less than its voluntary budget for overseas aid (0.7%). Administration represents about 6% of the EU budget total.

Every year HMRC provides PAYE taxpayers with a breakdown on how their taxes were spent. Our EU contributions are at the bottom of the list with things like social security and the NHS at the top. A person on a modal average income pays about 80p a week to the EU.

Not paying that 80p isn't going to make any difference to your quality of life but losing the benefits associated with it will definitely have an adverse impact.

If you travel to the continent on holiday each year, your travel insurance alone will increase by more than your annual contribution to EU funds with the so-called 'clean break' from the EU.

Is it possible/worth it to streamline the workings of the EU? Can savings be made?

I could save £450 per year by not renewing my vehicle and driver licences to be a taxi driver. I would be free from all the bureaucracy, rules and regulations imposed by my local authority. I would then have a choice between plying for hire illegally or delivering fast food for £30 a night minus expenses but at least I'd be free.

Perhaps my local council could be more efficient and reduce my fees. They are not permitted by law to make a profit. I could get licensed by Wolverhampton Council and pay £225 per year and work for U*** 10 or 20 miles from where I live. I'd be working 90 hours per week just to keep my head above water but at least I'd be free to work any 90 hours I chose instead of working to a fixed rota of 40 hours determined by agreement with my local firm.

If the European Parliament didn't move between Strasbourg and Brussels, how much would that save in percentage terms?

What would the political cost be?

If we cut the salaries of MEPs and Commissioners, how much would that save?

Would we still be able to recruit the brightest and best to ensure competence? We need EU legislation which is fit for purpose.

I'm sure with efficiencies we could bring that 6% down to 5. The same could be said for Whitehall but that doesn't seem quite so controversial because it is waste by our own pen pushers and not by Johnny Foreigner.

We could have austerity in the EU and cut structural funds to the poorest regions. Some of those regions are in the UK....

Surely, if these poorer regions are inside the same internal market as ourselves, it benefits us in the long run to bring them up to the same level. If our partners are more prosperous they become a bigger market for our goods and services and we theirs. Former Eastern Bloc countries will not be net beneficiaries for ever. Have you seen their growth rates over the last 20 years?

In terms of political reform I'd like to see the role of the European Commission reduced to that of a civil service. I'd like to see the European Parliament become a bicameral legislature instead. This may cost more but it could be worth it. What price democracy?

The lower house could sit in Strasbourg and the higher in Brussels, or vice versa. Select committees of elected MEPs could be formulating policy at the the behest of the European Council instead of their appointees at the Commission.

The possibilities are endless. The problem is that greater democratic accountability and closer integration go hand in hand. British eurosceptics back in the 1980s and 90s objected to increasing the role of the European Parliament. The same eurosceptics today complain of lack of democracy. This is a contradiction.

Would you rather a law imposed on you that you didn't like by your own government or one that you did like agreed in cooperation (collaberationl) with Johnny Foreigner?

Move away from the sphere of the institutions within the EU, whatever form they may take now and in the future, and you either lose the benefits or a say in those benefits.

The cake either goes in your mouth or it stays on the plate.

One last thing: if you really are bothered by perceived profligacy in Brussels/Strasbourg, stop reading the Express/Mail/Telegraph. I guarantee that in time you will stop giving a shit.
I think I see 2 areas where you see potential for reform, paragraphs 3 and 18. But I am not sure. Can you confirm?

It is a shame you ended it with the crap about reading the wrong paper. I don't read any of them, as I am not a Tory but I do live in Strasbourg. I pass the building every day. In addition, I am surprisingly close to it on a social level, as my kids are educated in an international Baccalaureate program here. Very popular school with employees that work for the EU and associated bodies. Hence, some are people we hang out with. People talk about it much more frankly here than people on PFM are prepared to talk about it.
 
Well there are ( apparently) , a number of species of UK voter these days...

-'Remainers'
-'hard Remainers' Whatever they are..
-'Leavers'

and..
'Scaredycat Leavers'
 
Please don't start that again, Roman. I've made my position very clear on this in other posts.
Lets be honest Brian, most of us are going around in circles, yourself included.

I consider the questions valid.

They apply to me too:

1) Much has changed and most of us have learned rather a lot. Whatever your stance it's not exactly panning out as promised or expected is it?

2)I'm afraid of the tory party, especially in its current hard right guise. I'm afraid of Brexit; Im afraid of our right wing press and I'm afraid of our 'special relationship' with the USA.

oops, just need to add putin.
 
If you think a binary choice between two concrete outcomes and a binary choice between a concrete option and an undefined, multivariate outcome is "picking nits", then I have some binary choices for you to make.

I don't. But as long as we now agree that both referendums provided binary choices, then consider the nit unpicked.

There certainly were other differences between the two referendums. The crucial one being whether parliament was willing and able to implement any of the outcomes.

In the AV referendum, I have little doubt that had it been won, we would have swiftly changed our general election voting system.

In the EU referendum, it appears that parliament is not willing and able to implement the leave outcome. Perhaps this is wise: it would certainly be wrong for MPs to continue with something they believe is not in the best interests of their constituents. In my view, they are representatives, not delegates, even in the face of referendums. But I can understand why leave voters might be extremely upset at being misled. Perhaps even being lied to (and I make a definite distinction between the two, as I believe all sensible people should).

Kind regards

- Garry
 
The result of the 2016 referendum was unanimous. 100% of the turnout voted for that which was promised by both sides of the argument: "continued free trade access to the EU’s single market”.

Continuity was obviously the Remain position, but here’s what Leave campaigners also said:
· “If we vote to leave we can maintain free trade” (Michael Gove, Andrew Marr show, 8/5/16)
· "As a minimum, we will seek continued access on free-trade terms to the EU’s single market.” (UKIP manifesto 2015, p71)
· “There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market” (Boris Johnson, 26/5/16)
· "FACT: After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU." (Vote Leave website – it’s still there!)
· “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market.” (Daniel Hannan, May 2015)
· “Only a madman would actually leave the [Single] Market” (Owen Paterson, May 2016)
· “It would be in the EU’s interest more than ours to have free trade access to the single market. A Leave Vote will let us have free trade, negotiation is not up to the European elite, businesses do business with businesses.” (Andrea Leadsom, 16/6/16)

The message was unequivocal. In the referendum no deal was not on the table:
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected." (The Leave Alliance website.)
We would leave with a deal and the deal would mean "continued free trade access to the single market".

Since this was promised to the electorate by both LEAVE and REMAIN campaigns, that is what 33.5 million people voted for. That is the unequivocal result of the referendum. That is the irrefutable “will of the people” – not a mere majority but unanimity. The country was united. Everybody voted for continued free trade access to the EU’s single market.
If some people have changed their minds and no longer want free trade access to the EU’s single market, then we need to know exactly how many. We must have a second referendum. It’s not rocket science.
 
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