Guitar talk: acoustic, bass, classical, twelve string? You name it! Pt II

[Yank]

Here’s Gibson driving up the second hand value of the hitherto unlovable Firebird X to get them off the corporate books. Ben Crowe (Crimson) was justifiably highly upset/annoyed by the fact they didn’t even strip the hardware and donate it to schools, charities etc, or even donate the whole instruments (I only heard about this from his weekly ‘On the bench’ feature). Just utterly dumb anti-environmental thuggery and further evidence Gibson have totally jumped the shark. The pickups, bridges, stop bars, knobs, pots etc are all clearly perfectly salvageable and usable even if they felt the guitars and the crazy ‘robot’ tuners were unsellable.

Apparently everything on this guitar - hardware, pickups, electronics - was proprietary to this model. Even donating them to a school or charity would have been problematic, the extensive internal electronics are based on an obsolete operating system that can't be updated. And the labor to part them out would likely have exceeded the value of the parts. Just having these things out there with the "Gibson" logo on the headstock would have been bad publicity, destroying them was their best option. Making a show of it, on the other hand, was a poor decision, and probably meant to be a dig at Henry J. The heavy machinery was on hand from decommissioning the factory. The part that offends me is the wasteful labor to lay them out like that, and then to clean up the pieces when the cameras and machines were gone.

 

[-alan-]

Beats me. I really can’t understand that level of corporate stupidity, especially as so many parts are common to other guitars (bridges, stop bars, pickups etc). As a second hand record dealer I chuck a fair bit of stuff away, but only that which is damaged or just unsellable (magazine CDs etc), and even then only after I’ve asset stripped any good inners, CD cases and separated out the sleeves, inserts etc into paper recycling. I can’t comprehend what Gibson were doing above and I find it hugely offensive from a ‘green’ perspective. I’ve lost any respect I may have had for them as a brand as at this point in time (climate emergency etc) that is entirely unacceptable behaviour.

PS I have seen much corporate waste, e.g. as an IT contractor in the ‘90s I was asked to dispose of countless obsolete but still usable computers etc, but even back then I tried to be a bit crafty about it and asset-stripped took anything I could make money on. During one big corporate IT roll-out I think I made £2k+ on the side one year from CEX in That London as I took them so much RAM, network cards, etc. Anything I could get in my bag that was otherwise heading for a skip really. It is where my trusty Model M keyboard came from, though I’m still irked by how many of those I’ve flung in skips along with their matching PS/2s (they had no value back then, I just recognised they were by far the best made computer keyboards so made sure I took some!). I wish I’d kept a complete PS/2 and monitor too!

Certainly is frustrating to see, but from my days in manufacturing, I can get understand the costs of paying somebody to retrieve parts and the logistics of feeding them back into inventory as installed/retrieved could make it more hassle than what it's worth.

The bit I still hadn't fully got my head round is why any manufacturer would choose to suck up the loss on 350 units, as opposed to try to sell them on to recover some element of cost. Gav's point about impacting sales of other product lines does make sense. Had a google and apparently the practise is widespread with lots of 'designer brands':

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/...nds-burning-merchandise-burberry-nike-h-and-m

Logic there seems to be that as manufacturing costs are a relatively low part of the overall item price with a very large percentage absorbed by marketing and branding - better to lose the value of the destroyed stock, than risk damaging the brand through discounting and not be able to sustain the huge markups in price. Not sure that's quite the case with guitars.

 

[Joe]

They can also write off the cost of the destroyed stock against tax.

 

[-alan-]

Apparently everything on this guitar - hardware, pickups, electronics - was proprietary to this model. Even donating them to a school or charity would have been problematic, the extensive internal electronics are based on an obsolete operating system that can't be updated. And the labor to part them out would likely have exceeded the value of the parts. Just having these things out there with the "Gibson" logo on the headstock would have been bad publicity, destroying them was their best option. Making a show of it, on the other hand, was a poor decision, and probably meant to be a dig at Henry J. The heavy machinery was on hand from decommissioning the factory. The part that offends me is the wasteful labor to lay them out like that, and then to clean up the pieces when the cameras and machines were gone.

We cross posted there - but if the bad publicity bit was likely, then 350 guitars @ say $500(?) unit cost - $175k was a fairly big hit*. Somebody must have a career adjustment following that I suspect.

(*Nowhere near as bad as the adverse PR from the leaked crushing videos mind you .. )

 

[gavreid]

They can also write off the cost of the destroyed stock against tax.

Apparently that's not true were they to have salvaged the hardware though, only for a fully function guitar! So part of the issue seems to be the tax regime.

 

[-alan-]

Another youtube narcissist...

Thought that was a bit harsh..initially.

Watched another of his videos called 'How to Quickly Learn the FretBoard' - and then made the mistake of giving it a thumbs down and also taking the trouble to explain why. (See his response in the comments below if you like.)

Changed my opinion - I think you were right first time Yank

 

[Yank]

Thought that was a bit harsh..initially.

Watched another of his videos called 'How to Quickly Learn the FretBoard' - and then made the mistake of giving it a thumbs down and also taking the trouble to explain why. (See his response in the comments below if you like.)

Changed my opinion - I think you were right first time Yank

I couldn't find it, or a response, did he scrub it?

So. Much. Scrolling...

 

[-alan-]

Was still there the last time I looked..right at the top..



alanIrl992 days ago
Had to give this one a thumb down. Love your videos Rick, but I don't see how this helps in terms of learning the fretboard quickly


Rick Beato1 day ago
I’m sorry but only a holes announce that they’re going to give a thumbs down. People that say they love my videos don’t act like that. They quietly move on.

So I'm an A-hole
(The issue I had btw was that I spent the guts of half an hour watching to see whether there was some 'Quick way to learn the fretboard' as suggested by the title - an area I still struggle with. Over 30 minutes worth of watching him run through ever more complex scales up ad down the keyboard, and then being constantly reminded ' of course this is all in The Beato Book' .. I realised I'd been had

 

[matthewr]

Beato's content is aimed at people who do music theory and learn/play guitar in a music school sort of way. So if you have a serious interest in jazz improv, re-harmonisation, etc. then he's great. Otherwise not so much.

To learn the fretboard there are three approaches.

1) Learn "by theory" and concentrate on, for example, knowing where chord tones and intervals are in relation to a key and the chords in that key and learn to navigate and identify by knowing scales, patterns (octaves, etc.). This is what Beato means by learning the fretboard.

2) Invest in memorising the notes and then as you learn theory (scales, chords, etc) this knowledge will be very useful and allow it all to make more sense because you "know" what you are playing both in an absolute and relative/theoretical sense. The best way to do this is, I think, spend 5 minutes each morning finding all the As on every string up to the 12th fret. Then the next day repeat with all the Bs (natural notes only). Keep doing this until you can do each set of notes across all six strings along with a metronome at, say, 60bpm. Takes about a month but then whenever you are playing a scale you know *instantly* wahty you are playing both as, say, the II scale degree in this key and the note name. This is quite an investment although people claim it can be transformative in terms of know what you are doing/playing.

3) Say **** this and jam with yer mates by ear and/or just knowing what key you are in and therefore where on the neck to start the moveable scales you have learnt.

The final approach is to just learn your favourite songs by googling for the tab and ignore all of this. Then stop playing guitar for 10 years and forget all these songs and end up in a position of knowing essentially nothing. From personal experience I do not recommend this approach

 

[-alan-]

I studied piano for 4-5 years as a kid (or perhaps more accurate to say - turned up at the music teacher's house every Tuesday at 5:30.) and managed to scrape through four external Grade theory and practicals. Despite that (or perhaps because of it) I've never really invested the time and effort in trying to learn to read and apply music theory to the guitar.

In truth I'm almost entirely a method 3 man above. Never invested the time and effort in learning exactly where each and every note is. No excuses really - just laziness, and probably the fact that I'd rather play than go back to studying the theory - hence the desire to find a 'quick' method.

I suspect there really is no quick way other than just knuckling down and investing the time and effort as you describe in method 2, just learning the fretboard off by heart

 

[saturn9]

The final approach is to just learn your favourite songs by googling for the tab and ignore all of this. Then stop playing guitar for 10 years and forget all these songs and end up in a position of knowing essentially nothing. From personal experience I do not recommend this approach

Didn’t work for me either.

How is the acoustic search going?

 

[Yank]

Was still there the last time I looked..right at the top..



alanIrl992 days ago
Had to give this one a thumb down. Love your videos Rick, but I don't see how this helps in terms of learning the fretboard quickly


Rick Beato1 day ago
I’m sorry but only a holes announce that they’re going to give a thumbs down. People that say they love my videos don’t act like that. They quietly move on.

So I'm an A-hole
(The issue I had btw was that I spent the guts of half an hour watching to see whether there was some 'Quick way to learn the fretboard' as suggested by the title - an area I still struggle with. Over 30 minutes worth of watching him run through ever more complex scales up ad down the keyboard, and then being constantly reminded ' of course this is all in The Beato Book' .. I realised I'd been had

Ah, the "everybody loves me baby what's the matter with you" response.

 

[matthewr]

How is the acoustic search going?

It's going well

Although foolishly took the advice of people here and went to play some guitars, so naturally the one I "bonded with" required me to spend about £200 more than I planned

It's a Faith "Blood Moon" Venus which is made from a beautiful Indonesian wood called Trembasi which, I am told, sounds like mahogany. Solid back and sides, flame maple binding, mahogony neck with ebony fretboard. My shitty photo does it no justice as it looks stunning.

Compared to the others I tried it was instantly playable although I think a lot was maybe partly to do with the setup as it comes with a nice low action and correctly intonated. Very playable for an electic player like myself. Sounds great as well with lots of sustain and a lovely warm, full of harmonics sound. Also smaller 000 size with a cutaway.

I can't stop picking it up fro a loving fondle (ooh eer!) and a quick noodle. Indeed the only downside is it's so beautiful and has a gloss finish so I am forever wiping it with my duster to get rid of finger and sweaty arm marks.

https://www.faithguitars.com/guitars/by-series/blood-moon-series/product/183-fvbmb-venus-cut-electro

 

[Aethelist]

Nice. But that saddle? Looks like it's been brushed with Colgate or something. The white white smile that gets you noticed...

I'd stick some used tea bags on it to tone it down if it were mine.

 

[Tony L]

3) Say **** this and jam with yer mates by ear and/or just knowing what key you are in and therefore where on the neck to start the moveable scales you have learnt.

I’m somewhere below that! I genuinely haven’t the slightest clue what I’m doing, but can bluff it on bass as I can fairly quickly find something largely in tune that fits with the rhythm and can fool a casual onlooker as being deliberate.

When it comes to guitar I get my enjoyment from noodling around finding interesting chords and stringing them together. I don’t really do anything much that could be described as ‘lead’, just find chords that when played clean often sound vaguely jazzy, when played with distortion/FX sound a bit Sonic Youth, MBV or Cocteaus-ish. I’m still at the stage of stumbling over new ones, so still plenty of fun. I often wonder what it would have been like to have learned music properly rather than having bluffed it for 40 years!

 

[matthewr]

Nice. But that saddle? Looks like it's been brushed with Colgate or something. The white white smile that gets you noticed...

I'd stick some used tea bags on it to tone it down if it were mine.

It's not that bright IRL so probably my shitty phone photo. Saddle and nut are one of those TUSQ ones so like bone but an animal didn't have to die for my musical pleasure.

 

[matthewr]

I’m somewhere below that! I genuinely haven’t the slightest clue what I’m doing, but can bluff it on bass as I can fairly quickly find something largely in tune that fits with the rhythm and can fool a casual onlooker as being deliberate.

Bass == root note 4 times per bar surely?

 

[Aethelist]

Ah the joys of the augmented diminished 13th flattened ninth..or rather , just dicking around and finding out later that's actually what it's called. Happy daze.

Tusq is good btw. Having experimented, and spent a lot of money in the process, on Fossilised Walrus Ivory and other exotic bone things, I can vouch for this. It doesn't notch and the tone is constant.
Got a lot of time for Eggle too. His main man - Peter - used to work for Brian May - has set up a couple of my guitars. Genius fella.

 

[-alan-]

Ah, the "everybody loves me baby what's the matter with you" response.

Yeah

I'm tempted to have a bit of fun with him. Shall see.

It's going well

Decent looking piece of timber that Matthew. Binding on an acoustic is seriously posh

 

[Aethelist]

Beato? He started off ok with his early what makes this good takedowns but I've since given up with him.

Now he's just beating one off all of the time.

His choice on the greatest intro's thing was quite comical though.