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The Tory leadership race- that’s quite a bestiary there.

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Brian said:
Which parties are progressive in your opinion and what is it in their manifesto that makes them progressive? I'll check the manifesto's myself later and compare with the Labour one.
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Green, Lib Dem, SNP & Plaid Cymru. They all exist in the progressive/centre-left/social-democrat area of the map. As do I!
 
Brian said:
The tories disappearing forever is a good thing for the long term health of the UK.
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Sadly I see no evidence of that. If their vote wasn’t potentially split down the middle by Farage and his dubious pimp I’d expect them to get more seats in a GE than any Corbyn-led or similar Labour Party. I suspect Johnson will poll fairly well as despite being an idiot on virtually every imaginable scale he understands his core demographic rather well.
 
Seanm said:
Norway might be a compromise but it's still awful, and practically speaking would not be experienced as a compromise by anyone. Given that they weren't in a position to make it happen anyway, Labour were right to keep alive the idea of a better compromise.
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Replace ‘idea’ with ‘fantasy’ and I agree.

Stephen
 
Brian said:
I've already said the tories have been incompetent. That does not mean the EU has negotiated properly and given anything. Is a "negotiation" all one-way in your view?
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That really depends on how realistic the demands are, doesn’t it? If you demand something the other side can’t give, that doesn’t make the other side unreasonable or intransigent. Especially if it said as much, repeatedly, before the negotiations started.

The Tories knew this, but chose instead to portray the other side as unreasonable. The EU has shown great forbearance in not tearing them a new one, over it.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
That really depends on how realistic the demands are, doesn’t it? If you demand something the other side can’t give, that doesn’t make the other side unreasonable or intransigent. Especially if it said as much, repeatedly, before the negotiations started.

The Tories knew this, but chose instead to portray the other side as unreasonable. The EU has shown great forbearance in not tearing them a new one, over it.
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They are still at it. They’re still peddling fantasy WTO as well.

Stephen
 
Tony L said:
It is core policy for all UK progressive parties bar Labour, so why wouldn’t we vote for them instead?!
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Well I can think of one good reason: they're cynically bulls_tting you! Impossible nature of unicorns is no bar to selling them.

Look I'm not saying remaining is entirely impossible, only that even if it happens it's going to be awful. Whatever the "progressive" parties tell you, there is no way of transporting the country back to 2012 Olympics opening ceremony. The remain position would be much more compelling if it were also much more pessimistic. I know there's no electoral advantage in that but that's not voters' problem is it? I find the insistence that politicians lie to us really remarkable.
 
stephen bennett said:
Cameron did not come away with ‘nothing’ That’s a Brexiteer myth you’ve bought into. It may not have been enough for you, but that’s a different thing.

May’s deal is not on that graphic.

She negotiated a special CU for the UK. It was the best bespoke deal available under those Tory red lines that all leave voters supported by enabling the Conservatives to take us out of the EU.

In those terms, it was a triumph.

Of course compared to staying in the EU it was a terrible outcome. But leavers will never accept there is no other type of Brexit.

Stephen.
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Not likely, as I don't read "brexiteer" propaganda. I also never said May's deal was on the graphic. Not sure why you mention it.

So Cameron didn't get much. I see repeated use of the word "may" in there, it's just a lot of fluff and little substance. In the years since Cameron attempted this It's been generally acknowledged by people on both sides that Cameron didn't get any meaningful EU reform, so I'm not sure why you're arguing to the contrary. The reality is, nothing much happened and it only reinforced that the EU can't be reformed or diverted from the direction of its project.
 
stephen bennett said:
Replace ‘idea’ with ‘fantasy’ and I agree.

Stephen
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You can call it a fantasy if you want but it's the only one I've seen that bears any relation to reality at all. Call it the Game of Thrones of political fantasies. Had Labour won the 2017 election we would probably be implementing it now. As long as the government can't get their Brexit through and there exists a mandate to leave, the opposition has to be able to say what their Brexit would involve.
 
Brian said:
Not likely, as I don't read "brexiteer" propaganda. I also never said May's deal was on the graphic. Not sure why you mention it.

So Cameron didn't get much. I see repeated use of the word "may" in there, it's just a lot of fluff and little substance. In the years since Cameron attempted this It's been generally acknowledged by people on both sides that Cameron didn't get any meaningful EU reform, so I'm not sure why you're arguing to the contrary. The reality is, nothing much happened and it only reinforced that the EU can't be reformed or diverted from the direction of its project.
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He got quite a lot given that his position was "We demand to be given exceptional status". That they indulged him at all is remarkable.
 
Tony L said:
Green, Lib Dem, SNP & Plaid Cymru. They all exist in the progressive/centre-left/social-democrat area of the map. As do I!
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I had guessed but didn't want to assume.

LibDem - https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto
We passionately believe that Britain is stronger as part of the European Union and we have led the fight to give the people the final say on the Brexit deal.
So, they are offering a compromise but then Labour also supports a second referendum and has done for some time now, plus Labour offers a compromise on acknowledging the outcome of a democratic referendum. The LibDems want to ignore it. Fair enough, you support that, but that's not "progressive".

I notice references to, "reform of the EU" (unicorn stuff) and "more efficient spending" (more austerity).

Basically, I don't see where the LibDems are progressive, they're just a slightly watered down version of the tories.

Green - https://manifesto.greenparty.org.uk/
I do like what they have to say, but unfortunately a wasted vote in our current system. If we had PR, I could vote for them.

Other than being a fashionable label, I see nothing to justify refering to these parties as progressive.
 
Seanm said:
He got quite a lot given that his position was "We demand to be given exceptional status". That they indulged him at all is remarkable.
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If going by previous negotiations any country has with the EU (look at Greece, for example), however, I don't believe he got much of any substance. Words are one thing, action is another.
 
One country cannot impose reform on 27 others. Many Brits have an unrealistic (some would say selfish) sense of how important the UK is.
AFAIK Germany appreciated the UK being a counter-balance to France on some issues.
Cameron set up the conditions for a Leave vote with Austerity, and disenfranchising a million Brits in Europe. He thought he was saving the Tory Party...
 
Labour MP Caroline Flint is on Marr right now inadvertently articulating perfectly why millions of us can’t touch Labour with the shitty end of a barge-pole. Apparently a letter from 26 such Labour gammons has gone to Corbyn insisting he follow Tory/UKIP policy.

PS She’d apparently vote ‘no deal’ before revoking A50, and as such Labour are entirely toxic as far as I’m concerned. We need to vote against this shit.
 
Brian said:
Well, from accounts I’ve heard discussed and reported, the EU gave nothing. That is not a negotiation.
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No. May and the EU agreed a deal. Only for her to fail to get it through and then return wanting to re-negotiate.
 
Tony L said:
Labour MP Caroline Flint is on Marr right now articulating perfectly why millions of us can’t touch Labour with the shitty end of a barge-pole. Apparently a letter from 26 such Labour gammons has gone to Corbyn insisting he follow Tory/UKIP policy. Screw Labour!
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They're rebels, mostly right wing and anti-Corbyn. Been trying to tell you about them for a while. Part of the parliamentary reality.
 
Tony L said:
Dreadful Labour MP Caroline Flint is on Marr right now articulating perfectly why millions of us can’t touch Labour with the shitty end of a barge-pole. Apparently a letter from 26 such Labour gammons has gone to Corbyn insisting he follow Tory/UKIP policy.
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Indeed, very depressing to see such rubbish at a time when a vote of no confidence will be tabled the minute Johnson wipes his feet on the mat. These Labour MPs will save him as things stand.
 
Seanm said:
They're rebels, mostly right wing and anti-Corbyn. Been trying to tell you about them for a while. Part of the parliamentary reality.
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Maybe so, but they are Labour’s problem, not mine. I am able to find better alternatives on the ballot-sheet!
 
Tony L said:
Maybe so, but they are Labour’s problem, not mine. I am able to find better alternatives on the ballot-sheet!
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Tony's ballot paper:

48112966393_ea02b35e54_z.jpg
 
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