The Tory leadership race- that’s quite a bestiary there.

[Seanm]

What’s interesting is May actually did better than that. A UK customs union with no cost to us. She did actually get a bespoke deal.

Problem that the Brexit position has hardened. For many, it seems that just walking away (even from our international obligations I is now the default.

Brian, the term you use, ‘hard remainers,’ just comes across as another pointless name calling exercise.

I think many would accept Brexit if we’d ever seen any indication after three years of the benefits. Even passionate leavers now just talk about it not being as bad as it could be to leave.

Stephen

There are no benefits to Brexit that I can see, but the real argument isn’t about that, it’s about what is the least bad outcome here. That may involve actually leaving. It’s not like we’re just going to go back to like it was before the referendum, and I think a lot of people don’t get that.

 

[rbrown]

As for the rest, point me to where I said I endorse the tory brexit?

What other form of Brexit did you think you were voting for?

 

[russel]

There are no benefits to Brexit that I can see, but the real argument isn’t about that, it’s about what is the least bad outcome here. That may involve actually leaving. It’s not like we’re just going to go back to like it was before the referendum, and I think a lot of people don’t get that.

If that is Labours policy then don’t expect remainers to vote for Labour, it’s just not in our interest. Your biggest problem is to get labour elected, my biggest problem is to stop Brexit and that is how I will cast my vote.

 

[ff1d1l]

If that is Labours policy then don’t expect remainers to vote for Labour, it’s just not in our interest. Your biggest problem is to get labour elected, my biggest problem is to stop Brexit and that is how I will cast my vote.

Succinctly nails it.

 

[Stunsworth]

There are no benefits to Brexit that I can see, but the real argument isn’t about that, it’s about what is the least bad outcome here. That may involve actually leaving. It’s not like we’re just going to go back to like it was before the referendum, and I think a lot of people don’t get that.

So a Labour supported Brexit will make people poorer, but not as poor as a Tory one. Yup, that sounds like something people can get behind.

 

[Brian]

I rest my case.

You haven’t made one.

If you read the detail you will find May’s deal is simply a list of UK concessions to the EU. Happily, as it is a crap deal for the UK it was voted down massively and repeatedly in parliament, however when May repeatedly went back to negotiate changes this was not enough for any movement at all by the EU, complete intransignce on the part of the EU as May repeatedly returned with nothing. If you conclude differently please go ahead and explain.

I also recall that ahead of the referendum, despite the suggestion we should remain and negotiate for EU reform from the inside, good old Cameron repeatdly came away from ‘negotiation’ with the EU with nothing.

That the tory govt was inept in these negotiations is a different subject, however the EU flatly refused to budge in general, so hardly a proper negotiation with plenty of intransigence by the EU. As hard remainers don’t recognise their own intransigence it’s doubtful such people will see it in the EU though.

Has it escaped you that the EU is showing right now it can’t even negotiate and agree with itself on its next bunch of people in the top jobs? Perhaps those positions should be decided by the people via democratic elections?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48706193
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ald-tusk-and-jeanclaude-juncker-a4172481.html

 

[Brian]

If that is Labours policy then don’t expect remainers to vote for Labour, it’s just not in our interest. Your biggest problem is to get labour elected, my biggest problem is to stop Brexit and that is how I will cast my vote.

Hard-remainers actually.

Sensible people understand that with a result of 52/48, compromise is the answer.

 

[Brian]

Spoken like someone who truly hasn't a freaking clue what they are talking about. After 40 years of handbagging replacing actual negotiating the Tories were left in the position when they couldn't just say "This is what we're doing, and we will have that that and that"; then force a vote through to ratify it. No they had to actually try and negotiate with adults who know how to do exactly that.

...

Feeling better after yet another keyboard rant?

I haven’t seen anything as unrelated to my position as this diatribe you launched into. If you think my opinion is the tories are competent you are mistaken.

 

[Nick_G]

^Brian, those red lines show us exactly where we'd end up. Theresa May set up her own red lines because she was too busy pandering to the Brexit jihadists in her own party to make a sensible negotiation, so ended up with a deal that neither remainers nor leavers could get behind. Add to that the childish and pathetic behaviour by the Brexit 'negotiators' she appointed, and we end up in the current mess, with no easy way out. Now it looks like the Brextremists will be steering the UK over the abyss, with Boris Johnson as the puppet 'captain'.

That hardly represents a result that was so close it was nearly 50:50. With any luck this will destroy the Tories for generations to come. Unfortunately they will be taking the country down with them.

 

[wyjsar]

Here is some information about Cameron's "deal":
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
May's "deal" is far better in economic terms than a hard Brexit. It may not be all that people happen to want but a "cake and eat it deal" was never going to happen.

 

[stephen bennett]

You haven’t made one.

If you read the detail you will find May’s deal is simply a list of UK concessions to the EU. Happily, as it is a crap deal for the UK it was voted down massively and repeatedly in parliament, however when May repeatedly went back to negotiate changes this was not enough for any movement at all by the EU, complete intransignce on the part of the EU as May repeatedly returned with nothing. If you conclude differently please go ahead and explain.

I also recall that ahead of the referendum, despite the suggestion we should remain and negotiate for EU reform from the inside, good old Cameron repeatdly came away from ‘negotiation’ with the EU with nothing.

That the tory govt was inept in these negotiations is a different subject, however the EU flatly refused to budge in general, so hardly a proper negotiation with plenty of intransigence by the EU. As hard remainers don’t recognise their own intransigence it’s doubtful such people will see it in the EU though.

Has it escaped you that the EU is showing right now it can’t even negotiate and agree with itself on its next bunch of people in the top jobs? Perhaps those positions should be decided by the people via democratic elections?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48706193
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ald-tusk-and-jeanclaude-juncker-a4172481.html

Cameron did not come away with ‘nothing’ That’s a Brexiteer myth you’ve bought into. It may not have been enough for you, but that’s a different thing.

May’s deal is not on that graphic.

She negotiated a special CU for the UK. It was the best bespoke deal available under those Tory red lines that all leave voters supported by enabling the Conservatives to take us out of the EU.

In those terms, it was a triumph.

Of course compared to staying in the EU it was a terrible outcome. But leavers will never accept there is no other type of Brexit.

Stephen.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The Tory Parliamentary Party seems to be packed to the gills with idiots, incompetents and self-centred arseholes. The likes of Grieve are very much the exception.

So it’s hardly surprising that everything they touch turns to ashes.

The question for me is who on earth made the decision to put such cretins forward as candidates in the first place. The buffoons in constituency parties have an awful lot to answer for, but will never be held to account for making such disastrous decisions.

 

[stephen bennett]

Hard-remainers actually.

Sensible people understand that with a result of 52/48, compromise is the answer.

I see you persist trying to ridicule people with a different view to yourself with your meaningless epithet.

If you recall, that’s what most of us wanted Post-referendum. But being ignored by May and Corbyn has hardened remain attitudes.

‘Norway’ would have been such a compromise, for example.

But, and I can’t stress this enough, it was always going to be the Conservatives who took us out of the EU. A basically Eurosceptic party and membership. This was inevitable.

Compromise was never going to happen in this case and remainers pointed this out before the referendum, many times. Labour leavers ignored us and voted to enable the Tory Brexit anyway.

Stephen

 

[Seanm]

If that is Labours policy then don’t expect remainers to vote for Labour, it’s just not in our interest. Your biggest problem is to get labour elected, my biggest problem is to stop Brexit and that is how I will cast my vote.

Succinctly nails it.

So a Labour supported Brexit will make people poorer, but not as poor as a Tory one. Yup, that sounds like something people can get behind.

Promise us a unicorn, or we won't vote for you.

 

[Seanm]

Here is some information about Cameron's "deal":
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
May's "deal" is far better in economic terms than a hard Brexit. It may not be all that people happen to want but a "cake and eat it deal" was never going to happen.

It is a hard Brexit. It's not as bad as no deal, but it's still a hard Brexit.

 

[Seanm]

If you recall, that’s what most of us wanted Post-referendum. But being ignored by May and Corbyn has hardened remain attitudes.

‘Norway’ would have been such a compromise, for example.

But, and I can’t stress this enough, it was always going to be the Conservatives who took us out of the EU. A basically Eurosceptic party and membership. This was inevitable.

Compromise was never going to happen in this case and remainers pointed this out before the referendum, many times. Labour leavers ignored us and voted to enable the Tory Brexit anyway.

Stephen

Norway might be a compromise but it's still awful, and practically speaking would not be experienced as a compromise by anyone. Given that they weren't in a position to make it happen anyway, Labour were right to keep alive the idea of a better compromise.

 

[Tony L]

Promise us a unicorn, or we won't vote for you.

It is core policy for all UK progressive parties bar Labour, so why wouldn’t we vote for them instead?! The only unicorn on view here is Corbyn thinking he can somehow get a different ‘deal’ on the table. That is pure fantasy. The only options in play are the existing rejected deal, no deal, or revoking A50. That is a clear choice for most of us, though apparently not for Labour...

 

[Brian]

What other form of Brexit did you think you were voting for?

Thought I would come back to this one.

I'm not going to do a "decameron" by checking your posting history, but is this all you ever have to post?

No matter how much you want to know how I voted in the referendum, or how often you post that I voted leave, I am not going to inform people on an internet forum how I voted in the referendum. It is private information. Try having some respect rather than continually playing the keyboard warrior.

 

[Brian]

It is core policy for all UK progressive parties bar Labour, so why wouldn’t we vote for them instead?! The only unicorn on view here is Corbyn thinking he can somehow get a different ‘deal’ on the table. That is pure fantasy.

I asked this last week, I think.

Which parties are progressive in your opinion and what is it in their manifesto that makes them progressive? I'll check the manifesto's myself later and compare with the Labour one.

 

[Brian]

^Brian, those red lines show us exactly where we'd end up. Theresa May set up her own red lines because she was too busy pandering to the Brexit jihadists in her own party to make a sensible negotiation, so ended up with a deal that neither remainers nor leavers could get behind. Add to that the childish and pathetic behaviour by the Brexit 'negotiators' she appointed, and we end up in the current mess, with no easy way out. Now it looks like the Brextremists will be steering the UK over the abyss, with Boris Johnson as the puppet 'captain'.

That hardly represents a result that was so close it was nearly 50:50. With any luck this will destroy the Tories for generations to come. Unfortunately they will be taking the country down with them.

I've already said the tories have been incompetent. That does not mean the EU has negotiated properly and given anything. Is a "negotiation" all one-way in your view?

The tories disappearing forever is a good thing for the long term health of the UK.