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Harbeth P3ESR alternative?

Martyn Miles said:
It’s interesting that Pro-Ac speakers are often put forward as an alternative to Harbeths.
From what I have read, their strengths appeal to many PFM members.
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IME ProAcs find a nice overall balance of being punchy and vibrant on one hand and smooth and airy on the other. Though, with a transparency that means they won't flatter a brighter/edgier system or piece of music... like a P3 might. (That said, not so keen on the ProAc ribbon tweeters as the silk dome ones.)

Auditioned ProAc DB1s and P3s side by side. Much more musical life force with the DB1s, especially with some volume, but no not quite the midrage-centric ease at lower volumes. Depends what you want.
 
marcin375 said:
Van dammes have amaizing bass and mids but it turns out that they roll off the top end. I will try to find the right cable for the P3ESRs. I'm not going to buy anything really expensive but just cable that fits my system. Maybe silver plated Chord rumour 2? I listened them in the past in another system and I remember they were natural, maybe a little bit bright in the highs with tight bass and are not super expensive.
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I had Chord Rumour-2 for several years. It was necessary for me when I got my first Naim amp, as the Kimber 8TC I had was not a good system match at all - it worked fine with most other amps, but lost all of its musicality and sounded horribly bright on Naim. The Rumour-2 sounded very neutral, very musical, etc., and was a good match between Naim and JMLab. However, when I switch over to ProAc speakers, it was missing a little something. It didn't really convey the dynamics well, and the top end was a little rolled off. I tried some Witch Hat N2, which sounded similar to the Chord Rumour-2, and then eventually got some Naim NACA-5, which restored proper dynamics, and a more open, extended top end. I think you could do worse than starting with Rumour-2, but keep in mind that it might not be the best cable to match between your amp and your speakers. What I can say I've heard sound really good with the P3ESRs (driven by a Naim UnitiQute) was Nordost Purple Flare. Really musical, dynamic, well-balanced, hard to critique.
 
ryder said:
My experience is solely with Harbeth Super HL5 for 7 years and HL5 Plus for 2 years now but I think my experiences can relate to the P3ESR.

In short, I tried the Rega Elicit mk2 with the Harbeth and the sound was like what you have described. I also have owned Yamaha amps and tried top-of-the-range Sony ES pre/power amps on the Harbeth and no major change in sonic presentation.

The only small integrated that gave a significant change in sound was the LFD Zero mk3. It gave an instant Wow factor once inserted into the system and fired up from cold. No warm up required. The sound is full of life and vitality with extended highs and rawness, traits which were missing with previous amps I tried. The LFD made all other amps sound dull and lifeless in comparison.

Before you throw the towel on the P3ESR, it might be worthwhile if you explore few alternatives. There are some who reported great results when matching Harbeth to Sonneteer and Croft amps but i have no experience with these.

I personally use Naim pre/power on the Super HL5 Plus but wouldn't recommend the Naim integrated for the Harbeth particularly the Nait XS and below. I tried the Nait XS and it sounded very similar to the Rega Elicit Mk2 when driving the Super HL5s. I had a friend over during the listening session and we both looked at each other when we swapped the amps, as we couldn't tell how the amps were different. The Harbeth only started to open up with the 202/200 onward with Naim.
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This is an interesting post because as far as I can see it’s the only one which says that the shortcomings of the speakers can be alleviated by a specific amp, the LFD Zero mk3. And you say this from experience. I can see that the LFD helped you with the treble, but the OP has a problem in the bass as well - did the LFD help there too?

I’m quite interested in this because I too have a pair of small speakers, with 4inch bass drivers, which are so cute I want to keep them. And I want to listen from a chair a few feet away, not with the tweeters rammed up my ears.

Is it just physically impossible to get a strong presence even in in lower frequencies from small speakers, and that trying to compensate the small bass drivers with amplification is just like trying to break the laws of physics? You either listen very close (Tony), or swallow the compromise which is anyway less problematic in some types of music (me) or ditch small speakers (Jez)
 
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mandryka said:
This is an interesting post because as far as I can see it’s the only one which says that the shortcomings of the speakers can be alleviated by a specific amp, the LFD Zero mk3. And you say this from experience. I can see that the LFD helped you with the treble, but the OP has a problem in the bass as well - did the LFD help there too?

I’m quite interested in this because I too have a pair of small speakers, with 4inch bass drivers, which are so cute I want to keep them. And I want to listen from a chair a few feet away, not with the tweeters rammed up my ears.

Is it just physically impossible to get a strong presence even in in lower frequencies from small speakers, and that trying to compensate the small bass drivers with amplification is just like trying to break the laws of physics? You either listen very close (Tony), or swallow the compromise which is anyway less problematic in some types of music (me) or ditch small speakers (Jez)
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The LFD Zero LE3 did boost everything from the treble to the bass. Everything just sprung to life. Treble is more extended and has a tube-like quality, midrange shows good clarity and separation which made most amps sound shut-in and veiled while the bass gains impressive speed and punch. Most warm amps which I owned especially the Plinius showed a heavy plodding bass quality when matched with the Harbeth. The bass of the SHL5 almost sounded like mud with the Plinius power amp and Audio Research pre when playing some fast pop and rock music.

Coming back to the LFD, it is not really the holy grail for Harbeth users as there are few things involved. Firstly as we all know not everyone hears the same and secondly not everyone can live without a remote and accept a bare and cheap looking case that the LFD exhibits - sorry but that's my opinion.

I didn't have the luxury to compare the LFD Zero to the Naim amps which I settled with several months later as i only tried the LFD in my system for one day. During that time I was still using the Plinius SA-100mk3/Audio Research LS16 mk2 and after swapping the amps the Plinius sounded broken. There were 4 or 5 other listeners in the room who shared the same impression once the LFD replaced the Plinius amp.

If I were to comment on the bass of the LFD Zero mk3, I would think that it lacks the depth and texture of the Naim amps which i am using now specifically the 282/250DR/Hicap DR. I think the 250DR is the amp that made all the difference in the bass as it gives a nice texture and layering to the bass even when compared to the Naim NAP200. The bass of the LFD (and NAP200) has good punch but it sounded one-note without the layering.

In your case since your speakers have 4 inch drivers, personally i don't think the amp will bring much difference to the bass. You may try it and see just to satisfy your curiosity
 
mandryka said:
.......

Is it just physically impossible to get a strong presence even in in lower frequencies from small speakers, and that trying to compensate the small bass drivers with amplification is just like trying to break the laws of physics? You either listen very close (Tony), or swallow the compromise which is anyway less problematic in some types of music (me) or ditch small speakers (Jez)
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Or buy a sub!
 
MikeMA said:
Or buy a sub!
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I've been playing with a sub with my small room speakers recently. With the Triangle Titus XS's I preferred it, but with the Wilson Benesch Square Ones I prefer not using it. They seem to go a lot lower than the similarly sized Triangles though, so maybe I just need to do some more playing about the with settings on the sub.
 
SteveG said:
I've been playing with a sub with my small room speakers recently. With the Triangle Titus XS's I preferred it, but with the Wilson Benesch Square Ones I prefer not using it. They seem to go a lot lower than the similarly sized Triangles though, so maybe I just need to do some more playing about the with settings on the sub.
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Have you tried any sort of room correction with the sub? I now regard it as pretty much essential to deal with room modes and sub placement.
 
MikeMA said:
Have you tried any sort of room correction with the sub? I now regard it as pretty much essential to deal with room modes and sub placement.
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No, but I might look into it. The sub was spare from when I had a home cinema set-up, so I was just playing with it because it was available - there hasn't really been any science involved in its placement or settings!
 
MikeMA said:
Have you tried any sort of room correction with the sub? I now regard it as pretty much essential to deal with room modes and sub placement.
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Mike can you say how that’s done in simple terms? I mean, really simple. What gear etc.
 
Another possibility is to stack them.


MikeMA said:
Or buy a sub!
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Yes, and that would be an authentic solution since the company who made my small speakers, Rogers, also made a sub for them. In a way I’m waiting for one to come onto the market at a suitable price and I’ll give it a try.
 
funny, I compared my P3ESR to my recapped Dynaco A25. The P3esr are faster and just way better.

Seas A26 though is another story
 
TheDecameron said:
Mike can you say how that’s done in simple terms? I mean, really simple. What gear etc.
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Dec, I'm use a BK XLS200-DF sub and bought an Antimode 8033 from the same people, on the basis that it seemed to me the simplest and most straightforward to set up without having to use a PC and additional software or whatever. Rather than me trying to explain how it all works, take a look at the Antimode link. The user manual and instructions are all there. I found it quite easy to set up and the people at BK Electronics are very helpful if you get stuck or need any particular interconnects. By all means get back to me if you want any more specific advice.
 
MikeMA said:
Dec, I'm use a BK XLS200-DF sub and bought an Antimode 8033 from the same people, on the basis that it seemed to me the simplest and most straightforward to set up without having to use a PC and additional software or whatever. Rather than me trying to explain how it all works, take a look at the Antimode link. The user manual and instructions are all there. I found it quite easy to set up and the people at BK Electronics are very helpful if you get stuck or need any particular interconnects. By all means get back to me if you want any more specific advice.
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Thanks Mike, I have a BK sub so this should do nicely.
Dec
 
TheDecameron said:
Thanks Mike, I have a BK sub so this should do nicely.
Dec
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It was the best relatively low cost investments in hi-fi I've made in recent years. Don't be put off by the instructions: they are very detailed and quite daunting at first glance, but the set up process is mostly automatic once you set it going.
 
If and when I add a sub I would look to buy an Antimode, wish I had on my previous failed attempts to get a sub to work.
 
MikeMA said:
It was the best relatively low cost investments in hi-fi I've made in recent years. Don't be put off by the instructions: they are very detailed and quite daunting at first glance, but the set up process is mostly automatic once you set it going.
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Stupid question, but does it take an analogue or digital signal?
 
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