Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+22)?

[Brian]

Genuinely interested- how will a Labour government after the next GE, solve the Brexit problem? And what is the Brexit problem?

If there is a GE before brexit and Labour form a govt I believe they will negotiate a compromise deal with the EU that will satisfy a majority. Only the hard-remainers and hard-leavers will whinge but we can live with that.

For your second question. There has been a stalemate in parliament going on for months. Google it, there is plenty of info out there. Labour will break the stalemate and the country will start to move forward.

 

[TheDecameron]

If there is a GE before brexit and Labour form a govt I believe they will negotiate a compromise deal with the EU that will satisfy a majority. Only the hard-remainers and hard-leavers will whinge but we can live with that.

For your second question. There has been a stalemate in parliament going on for months. Google it, there is plenty of info out there. Labour will break the stalemate and the country will start to move forward.

So the Brexit problem is Brexit is not happening?

 

[Brian]

You are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my 5 zimbabwean brexit pounds.

No counter points to what I said, then.

I used to think you could do better, Sean.

 

[lordsummit]

Never once have I told anyone here or elsewhere "how well I did working for a right wing rag".

I worked my bollocks off getting to the top of my profession as editor of an evening newspaper. But you don't mention that. My wife worked hard as well and she contributed to the house as much as I did. But you don't mention that. I don't have a car but there's a thread on here with people waving their c@cks over their outrageously expensive cars. Will you be casting an eye over their socialist credentials? No thought not.

Now, I suggest you wind your neck in, quit the irrelevant ad hom attacks and behave like a moderator.

No but they don’t seem to have a holier than thou approach to those who don’t share their narrow world view. You’re projecting a lot of anger, you also don’t like it back at you do you? Maybe it’s you who should quit the ad hom as you can’t accept what you dish out daily.

And yes, I think it’s more hypocritical to have worked for a right wing rag against the principals I portray than not to have resigned over the Iraq war. What do you say about Tories? Well you were keen enough to take their money. As for the Iraq war, if we knew then what we know now maybe it’d be a different matter eh? Hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

 

[Brian]

So the Brexit problem is Brexit is not happening?

There has been a referendum and the result was 52/48. Try google for that, as well.

I happen to think ignoring both the 52% and the 48% is a problem.

 

[TheDecameron]

There has been a referendum and the result was 52/48. Try google for that, as well.

I happen to think ignoring both the 52% and the 48% is a problem.

I’m interested in establishing what your thinking is Brian. Google, sophisticated though it is, cannot answer that. I’m unsure whether you are just being evasive or lacking in insight.

 

[sean99]

No counter points to what I said, then.
I used to think you could do better, Sean.

Ironically I think we both want the same future for the UK - a much fairer distribution of wealth and strong social services and safety net. I just happen to disagree with your proposed approach, which seems to be exactly what Corbyn has been (unsuccessfully) pushing.

Counterpoints.
1) There will not be a GE before Brexit. Tories will not turn on their own.
2) Corbyn is a spent force. He has alienated most remainers and could not win a GE even if one arose. His fence sitting comes across as either duplicitous or incompetent. If there is a GE before Brexit it will be hung - either a Farage / Tory coalition (nightmare scenario) or Labour would have to form a coalition with green / lib dem. There will be no room for idealogical purity.
3) If Brexit occurs the economy will be so damaged in the short-medium term that an future socialist administration will have no room to maneuver economically. Post Brexit governance will be constant financial crisis management for at least a decade.
4) If Brexit occurs and a self professed socialist party is subsequently elected on a platform of higher taxes for multinationals and income redistribution it will only accelerate the capital flight triggered by Brexit.

In short failure to address Brexit nullifies any other good intentions.

 

[HarryB]

No but they don’t seem to have a holier than thou approach to those who don’t share their narrow world view. You’re projecting a lot of anger, you also don’t like it back at you do you? Maybe it’s you who should quit the ad hom as you can’t accept what you dish out daily.

And yes, I think it’s more hypocritical to have worked for a right wing rag against the principals I portray than not to have resigned over the Iraq war. What do you say about Tories? Well you were keen enough to take their money. As for the Iraq war, if we knew then what we know now maybe it’d be a different matter eh? Hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

More ridiculous ad hom. No anger from me but as I said earlier I think it's reasonable for us all to expect a higher standard from so-called mods instead of the constant character attacks on me.

I didn't take any Tory money. I did a job and was paid. Perhaps we should look into your employment history. See if that stands up to close scrutiny.

You told me some time ago you were looking for a reason to ban me. I'm sure if you had one you'd have done it by now.

Seriously, I think you should give some thought into your nehaviour and whether it's compatible with that of a site moderator. Personally, I don't feel it is. But carry on with your personal attacks on me. One it doesn't bother me in the slightest (though I'll always call you out on it) and two it shows others that I'm right in my appraisal of your behaviour.

PS No doubt you'll now be talking to your moderator chums to see what can be done to ban me.

 

[Joe]

If there is a GE before brexit and Labour form a govt I believe they will negotiate a compromise deal with the EU that will satisfy a majority.

.

That will be the compromise where we leave and yet we pay more into the EU coffers than we do now. Accept free movement of people within the EU and accept all the EU rules without having any say at all in the making of those rules ? All so Jeremy can say that he has protected workers rights?

 

[TheDecameron]

Ironically I think we both want the same future for the UK - a much fairer distribution of wealth and strong social services and safety net. I just happen to disagree with your proposed approach, which seems to be exactly what Corbyn has been (unsuccessfully) pushing.

Counterpoints.
1) There will not be a GE before Brexit. Tories will not turn on their own.
2) Corbyn is a spent force. He has alienated most remainers and could not win a GE even if one arose. His fence sitting comes across as either duplicitous or incompetent. If there is a GE before Brexit it will be hung - either a Farage / Tory coalition (nightmare scenario) or Labour would have to form a coalition with green / lib dem. There will be no room for idealogical purity.
3) If Brexit occurs the economy will be so damaged in the short-medium term that an future socialist administration will have no room to maneuver economically. Post Brexit governance will be constant financial crisis management for at least a decade.
4) If Brexit occurs and a self professed socialist party is subsequently elected on a platform of higher taxes for multinationals and income redistribution it will only accelerate the capital flight triggered by Brexit.

In short failure to address Brexit nullifies any other good intentions.

Agreed. It will be impossible for a government to tax it’s way out of the effects of Brexit on the public sector. The Tory plan for fiscal control in a shrinking economy with a devalued pound and rising inflation, will be spending cuts of a depth not believed politically possible before.

 

[Joe]

PS No doubt you'll now be talking to your moderator chums to see what can be done to ban me.

In the interests of balance and if it helps any... I would ban you and I'm not a moderator.

I find the snarling aggression in your posts very wearing and unhelpful to the general tone. You were not posting at the weekend and discussions moved along nicely. You come back and start posting and immediately it's a tirade of bitterness.

Just in the interests of balance. HTH's ?

( now normally you would come back with something like " why don't you f*ck off..... but you might just hold back this time )

 

[Enfield boy]

No but they don’t seem to have a holier than thou approach to those who don’t share their narrow world view. You’re projecting a lot of anger, you also don’t like it back at you do you? Maybe it’s you who should quit the ad hom as you can’t accept what you dish out daily.

And yes, I think it’s more hypocritical to have worked for a right wing rag against the principals I portray than not to have resigned over the Iraq war. What do you say about Tories? Well you were keen enough to take their money. As for the Iraq war, if we knew then what we know now maybe it’d be a different matter eh? Hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

Those that went on the demo believed Iraq had no wmd, those that resigned their Labour party membership at the time did too. Hans Blix was confident that Iraq had no wmd. However Blair and Campbell with Bush cooked up a story to justify a war that could only ever result in the deaths of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of innocent people and innocent soldiers just sent to do a job.
This is not hindsight, it was pretty clear what was going on at the time.

 

[Brian]

I’m interested in establishing what your thinking is Brian. Google, sophisticated though it is, cannot answer that. I’m unsure whether you are just being evasive or lacking in insight.

Whichever label you want to go with is fine by me. Go for both if you can’t make up your mind. I won’t lose any sleep over it, as I said in an earlier post.

 

[h.g.]

The Tory plan for fiscal control in a shrinking economy with a devalued pound and rising inflation, will be spending cuts of a depth not believed politically possible before.

What about the tax cuts and deregulation? The people funding brexit know what they want and if we end up with a hard right conservative government they will deliver it.

 

[TheDecameron]

What about the tax cuts and deregulation? The people funding brexit know what they want and if we end up with a hard right conservative government they will deliver it.

Yes, public assets will be liquidated. Can you guess which one will be on the slab first? The one with an annual £13bn turnover.

 

[Brian]

Ironically I think we both want the same future for the UK - a much fairer distribution of wealth and strong social services and safety net. I just happen to disagree with your proposed approach, which seems to be exactly what Corbyn has been (unsuccessfully) pushing.

Counterpoints.
1) There will not be a GE before Brexit. Tories will not turn on their own.
2) Corbyn is a spent force. He has alienated most remainers and could not win a GE even if one arose. His fence sitting comes across as either duplicitous or incompetent. If there is a GE before Brexit it will be hung - either a Farage / Tory coalition (nightmare scenario) or Labour would have to form a coalition with green / lib dem. There will be no room for idealogical purity.
3) If Brexit occurs the economy will be so damaged in the short-medium term that an future socialist administration will have no room to maneuver economically. Post Brexit governance will be constant financial crisis management for at least a decade.
4) If Brexit occurs and a self professed socialist party is subsequently elected on a platform of higher taxes for multinationals and income redistribution it will only accelerate the capital flight triggered by Brexit.

In short failure to address Brexit nullifies any other good intentions.

Thank you.

I don’t see Labour as sitting on the fence, rather they recognise that replacing the tory govt is paramount. It solves everything else.

There is going to be a brexit of some flavour, better the Labour one followed by a Labour govt than a tory one followed by another 5 years of their incompetence. The only counter I see to that is the tory media machine convincing the hard of understanding that the whole thing is Labour’s fault. That is a big concern but I think things are so bad the tories just have to go.

 

[Brian]

That will be the compromise where we leave and yet we pay more into the EU coffers than we do now. Accept free movement of people within the EU and accept all the EU rules without having any say at all in the making of those rules ? All so Jeremy can say that he has protected workers rights?

I don’t know the detail of the deal Labour would negotiate if they were in govt. I believe they would do a whole lot better than May’s terrible deal.

 

[lordsummit]

Those that went on the demo believed Iraq had no wmd, those that resigned their Labour party membership at the time did too. Hans Blix was confident that Iraq had no wmd. However Blair and Campbell with Bush cooked up a story to justify a war that could only ever result in the deaths of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of innocent people and innocent soldiers just sent to do a job.
This is not hindsight, it was pretty clear what was going on at the time.

I agree completely now. However my opinion at the time was that someone who’d done so much good, was unlikely to do that. It’s a regret of mine to have been taken in by him.

 

[sean99]

I don’t see Labour as sitting on the fence, rather they recognise that replacing the tory govt is paramount. It solves everything else.

This is where we disagree. By fence sitting Labour have decimated their voting base, while at the same time letting the Tories completely off the hook for the Brexit disaster, and allowing Farage to seize the void.

labour should have spent the last 3+ years persuading voters that the EU is not THE problem and that Brexit is not the answer. That the answer is to remain and use domestic policy to create a fairer society, like most of the rest of Northern Europe then I think Labour would be much higher in the polls, Farage would not have such a large voting base, and Tories seeking a hard Brexit would be much more isolated.

Labour have failed to offer any coherent alternative to Brexit: the result is that remainers don't trust Labour, and leavers have been hoovered up by the hard brexiters and persuaded that WTO is the only way. Labour has lost the remain AND the leave vote.

 

[sean99]

Corbynites point to Blair and Iraq and LibDem and tuition fees in order to discredit Blair and LibDem position on Brexit. None of this means that Blair and the LibDems are wrong about Brexit. If you discount advice from anyone who ever made a mistake there would be few people to take advice from.