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Power Cables. Are they overhyped?

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A friend has a nice looking mains cable. Looks wise it seems to tick all the boxes.

It gets plugged into a common 4 bank extension and the home wiring isn't up to much.

I think the message has been lost somehow.

However, if something looks good and makes you feel good, that will still count for some I think. How is it any different to an unfeasibly thick front panel on a posh amplifier?
 
Does the unfeasibly thick front panel come with pseudo science and unlikely claims for happier electrons? Should we take any notice if it does?
 
abbydog said:
Does the unfeasibly thick front panel come with pseudo science and unlikely claims for happier electrons? Should we take any notice if it does?
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Maybe we are in the realms of the intangible elements that define quality and performance in the eye of the consumer ?

Comparing to cars, I keep thinking of the example where Ferrari drill their pedals. I've seen claims that this is all part of an unerring attention to weight saving detail. How much a few grams makes when the engine delivers 500bhp+ seems debateable, but it's a great selling point.

I have noticed that all these exotic mains cables have to look different from the crowd. They have to look the part too.
 
Ragaman said:
Of course not, this is forum world where they are all out to get'ya.

Have a read of the psychology of forums, there is a book somewhere around, it's an interesting insight into life online & the characters who dwell within, forums such as this are much trickier to solve than say twitter, where everything is upfront & in yer face, this place takes more time to read the patterns & groups within, to delve below the façade so to speak, but it can be achieved with a little patience.

Once you get there it's fascinating to watch it unfold.

Resistance is futile :)

PS/read the below post & work back, you won't be disappointed.
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Perhaps you would be better served by studying the psychology the Hi Fi Industry & their customers a wee bit more than the psychology of forum dynamics. Some vendors genuinely belief that their products do what they are advertised to do & magazine writers do tend to believe them. Some manufacturers are nothing less than cynical snake oil vendors. Genuine or not, they are making money out of people who are very selective in believing those with technical know-how, i.e. when those individuals point out the lack scientific explanation, they are skeptical but buy the stuff that other technically adept people design to start with! Go figure.
I've sworn to myself that I've heard inprovements to then undo & redo them to hear no change. I've had a Hi Fi friend around to listen to cables, who I've lead on with false enthusiasm, who has agreed when I didn't in fact change anything - it's so easy to fool both ourselves & others with so-called improvements.
I can remember a big ding-dong years back on a Usenet forum between those proposing sighted testing & those pointing out deficiencies - some got extremely abusive - folk here are are very polite by comparison!
It's not just Hi Fi, some will buy full price pain killers over cheap generic versions whilst others will spend a fortune on shampoo. If you have a degree in psychology & are not particularly empathic - choose a career in marketing!
 
BilliumB said:
Hi BE "Your earth will have noise currents on it" - that's exactly my point! And of course if the impedance is high it will show varying voltages at the earth point at the kit (don't forget I've got a 25m run from the kit back to the consumer unit, approx 30m+ back to the earth spike/mat network) - and I assume as a result will have an impact on the output of the kit, however small.

I totally agree with you on the benefits of balanced and double insulated kit in a high noise environment (I used to do flight trials of audio and radio equipment in fast jets many years ago, so fully understand what you're getting at); however I'm currently looking at installing a new Consumer Unit and Radial (and possibly an improved earth spike / earth mat network) that I'm expecting to last me 25+ years, and want to design it to get the best out of whatever kit (unbalanced, balanced, whatever) I decide to attach to it over the coming years.

Any more thoughts on the best way to minimise the impedance of the 'earth' path from the kit back to the consumer unit and earth spike/mat network would be most gratefully received!

Cheers. Bill
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Loweringvthe impedance of that link may not help. Remember the rest of your house and farm is connected to the supply. I expect the absolute potential of the earth is moving up and down and has noise on it. This therefore is connected to your signal screen. You still seem to be assuming that a good connection to earth is going to sink all the noise away.

The only way to solve the alleged problem you seem to be so worried about is not have your signal connected to earth.

Otherwise I have no other advice. You are worried about a problem that probably doesnt exist and seem to want a specific solution that probably wont do what you think.

Put a dedicated radial in, appropriate filters and be done with it. Then get on with enjoying the music :)
 
Paul Mc said:
So Alan Sircom us making all this up then?http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/hi-fi-awards-2016-cables-power-and-accessories/
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Well it's been a while since I've been around on this forum, but seeing a nice cable thread, I had to have a look. And following this link I came across Chord's latest gem:

"......due in no small part to the cables connecting the components getting out of the way and letting them do their job, something which Sarum Super ARAY achieves so effortlessly that you barely notice its contribution – until you remove it from the system and the music simply closes down!”

Well, I don't know about anybody else, but whenever I remove any cables from my system, the music tends to close down!

Nearly wet myself reading that!
 
BilliumB said:
Thanks for all your inputs folks!

Possibly a last question: why do you think people who have improved their earthing setup (basically additional earth spikes when connected to a TT earth) claim significant improvements in the sound of their kit? Is it all simply in their minds?

Cheers. Bill
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Short answer: Depends. :)

Longer answer: There might be a problems specific to their kit and situation which their alterations affected. Even if the change is actually *not* for the 'reason' they assume. So in some cases, yes, they might be imagining either the improvement *or* the 'reason' they attribute to it. But in other cases they may have fixed something that was broken, even if they don't really know what it was. OTOH, yes, they may be fooling themsleves. People make mistakes. And your case may be totally different to someone else's.

So the focus on 'RFI' for example might be a complete red herring. As may one on 'earth impedance'.

This all stimulates the arguments based on misunderstandings false 'facts', etc, etc. Which then suits nicely those who have expensive nostrums to sell which they feel sure are a 'solution'...

Bottom line, though, is that if you think you have a mains problem and don't *know* its cause, from an *engineering* POV the first routes to explore are in terms of better kit, mains filters, etc. Not looking for an 'audiophile' cable.

Mains filters are cheap and do what it says on the tin. (Ditto ferrite block clamp-ons) They are a good way to try if you think mains RFI is a problem.

However: Good engineering is based on first *correctly* diagnosing the cause of any problem and establishing it *actually* exists. Then using that knowledge to deploy the most relevant solution.
 
busb said:
Perhaps you would be better served by studying the psychology the Hi Fi Industry & their customers a wee bit more than the psychology of forum dynamics. Some vendors genuinely belief that their products do what they are advertised to do & magazine writers do tend to believe them. Some manufacturers are nothing less than cynical snake oil vendors. Genuine or not, they are making money out of people who are very selective in believing those with technical know-how, i.e. when those individuals point out the lack scientific explanation, they are skeptical but buy the stuff that other technically adept people design to start with! Go figure.
I've sworn to myself that I've heard inprovements to then undo & redo them to hear no change. I've had a Hi Fi friend around to listen to cables, who I've lead on with false enthusiasm, who has agreed when I didn't in fact change anything - it's so easy to fool both ourselves & others with so-called improvements.
I can remember a big ding-dong years back on a Usenet forum between those proposing sighted testing & those pointing out deficiencies - some got extremely abusive - folk here are are very polite by comparison!
It's not just Hi Fi, some will buy full price pain killers over cheap generic versions whilst others will spend a fortune on shampoo. If you have a degree in psychology & are not particularly empathic - choose a career in marketing!
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Were the tests carried out blind or sighted, did your friend have any idea the cable had been switched, I read a lot about expectation bias, it works both ways.

I agree on most points here BTW but I am still yet to meet anyone in person who lives up to forum hype where cables are concerned & I've met hundreds over the years, forums are the only place I hear about this weird twist on cable thinking, the above posts add clarity to my point.
This place is not alone, every hifi site have this almost religious take on it, I find it very interesting psychologically, hence my earlier post.
The patterns are almost identical on every forum for religious, political & cable threads, it has to say something about the human psyche for this to happen, I find it fascinating & does add weight as to why certain individuals get involved in online propaganda where terrorism is concerned, the group mentality is a potent force, you may think your immune from it but even the most intelligent of members can become trapped in a belief system.

Not sure if you have noticed but anytime someone claims to have spent very little on such a cable & gained an improvement (me amongst a few others here), the post gets glossed over, it seems only the super expensive mains cables are of interest, this is where a point can be made, the cheap stuff holds little interest as the mains cable is not the issue, I would imagine many looking in on such a thread as this will be intelligent enough to realise this, it's more about the individual poster.
 
Ragaman said:
I read a lot about expectation bias, it works both ways.
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Which is why objective evidence and tests that remove the effect of expectations as much as possible are so important.

forums are the only place I hear about this weird twist on cable thinking, the above posts add clarity to my point.
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Not sure this is in any way particular to cables. Have you ever visited an anti-vaxxer or creationist/intelligent design forum?

I find it very interesting psychologically
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Indeed.

Why Do We Believe Impossible Things?

The patterns are almost identical on every forum for religious, political & cable threads, it has to say something about the human psyche for this to happen
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Definitely.

Not sure if you have noticed but anytime someone claims to have spent very little on such a cable & gained an improvement (me amongst a few others here), the post gets glossed over
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Not really. I see the same critique over placebo tweaks, even if they are cheap or free.
 
I think its more doing his job than lying per se.

Gross hyperbole about products. Lets face it, how many mags would they sell if the plain truth was spoken, i.e. something like "this cable (insert whatever product) sounds very much like all the rest".
 
Ragaman said:
Not sure if you have noticed but anytime someone claims to have spent very little on such a cable & gained an improvement (me amongst a few others here), the post gets glossed over, it seems only the super expensive mains cables are of interest, this is where a point can be made, the cheap stuff holds little interest as the mains cable is not the issue, I would imagine many looking in on such a thread as this will be intelligent enough to realise this, it's more about the individual poster.
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You might have missed the point that the criticism and even ridicule is not directed at people who find that a certain cable makes a difference to them, but at manufacturers/vendors who justify the silly prices of their products using pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo.

If someone writes "to me, the B&Q white mains cable sounds better than the black one", there is no reason to respond. If someone posts manufacturer advertising copy stating that "the AudioFoo Turbo X500 mains cable (1995 quid) improves music resolution thanks to quantum electromagnetic interaction in the aerospace grade insulation", some questioning of those claims might be justified.
 
Dr Bews is the founder of LFD and with an impressive set of credentials.

Question: In your experience, do mains leads really make a difference, and are the expensive ones really capable of offering value?

Answer by Dr. Richard Bews:

Mains cables do change the sound of audio equipment. Unfortunately there’s a lot claims made about mains cables that are exaggerated. I suggest that the effect of a mains cable is not as important as interconnect, but is still significant. Value for money judgments are really down to the system, where these relatively small improvements make the difference between a good listening experience and an exceptional experience.

What I do NOT condone is high pricing for cheaply manufactured cables. If a cable must use expensive materials to realise truly high performance, then so be it. But the use of expensive materials for bullshit (leads to high prices) but not for sonic improvements is not the way forward. It just upsets customers.

I believe the reason why the performance of audio equipment is altered by mains cables, may be due to the influence of RFI on the mains. Generally I’ve found in the development of mains cables that dielectrics with improved high frequency performance possess better sound quality compared to normal PVC insulated cables.

http://www.frohmusik.de/cms/bigace/...ml?PHPSESSID=6b1f25425cbdc0247338a54fbe2dd1ee
 
AKG said:
Dr Bews is the founder of LFD and with an impressive set of credentials.

Question: In your experience, do mains leads really make a difference, and are the expensive ones really capable of offering value?

Answer by Dr. Richard Bews:

(snip)

I believe the reason why the performance of audio equipment is altered by mains cables, may be due to the influence of RFI on the mains. Generally I've found in the development of mains cables that dielectrics with improved high frequency performance possess better sound quality compared to normal PVC insulated cables.

http://www.frohmusik.de/cms/bigace/...ml?PHPSESSID=6b1f25425cbdc0247338a54fbe2dd1ee
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I'd be curious to know what aspect of "improved" that would refer to.

And speaking as an (ex-) card carrying academic, I tend not to judge on 'credentials'. Indeed, if you look upthread you can see that in the past I was less than whelmed by some comments years ago under the "Essex Echo" title made by a well known academic.
 
AKG said:
Dr Bews is the founder of LFD and with an impressive set of credentials.
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To quote Carl Sagan: "One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else."

I believe the reason why the performance of audio equipment is altered by mains cables, may be due to the influence of RFI on the mains. Generally I’ve found in the development of mains cables that dielectrics with improved high frequency performance possess better sound quality compared to normal PVC insulated cables.
Click to expand...

I hoped for some evidence for that statement, but unfortunately the "tests" section only has links to reviews in Stereophile and 6Moons...
 
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