60's & 70's amplifiers

[beammeup]

Really???

OK I said 'seems' from a person that really does not have any electrical expertise in these matters and sees written text that looks convincing enough to at least give it a go.

He doesn't just rant about this being better than that without a supporting reason of sorts.

So again, the proof is in the pudding for me at least.

 

[Tony L]

But it does open up a train of thought to be open minded in these matters and not to perhaps expect British amps to be superior to Jap amps (Quad vs Yamaha for example). It's not sexy or patriotic I know, but it may be 'fact'...

Except he's not arguing that to my eyes, his position seems to be that many widely respected and valuable amps (Leaks, Quads, Radfords etc) are crap because he's seen a few pictures of badly restored examples on eBay and thinks he knows more about electronics that Peter Walker, Harold Leak etc. The reality, borne out by those of us who use them daily, is that these are solid, well made, reliable and very easily serviceable kit that sounds great when used in an appropriate context. I suspect another issue is that these amps all being so popular in the market, so 'classic' in status now effectively reside in the public domain and many users such as myself simply don't need to pay high service costs as anyone who can solder neatly can do it themselves. The information is all out there, parts, kits, even third party upgrade packages are all widely available. The amusing thing is a huge part of his music collection will have been recorded, mixed and mastered using Quad amps, and personally I'd take the purchasing decisions of EMI, Abbey Rd, Decca etc as to whether they are junk or not.

 

[Patcam]

OK I said 'seems' from a person that really does not have any electrical expertise in these matters and sees written text that looks convincing enough to at least give it a go.

He doesn't just rant about this being better than that without a supporting reason of sorts.

So again, the proof is in the pudding for me at least.

Certainly agree with that...for us non-tech hobbyists it's difficult to know who's right and who's wrong. We can only go by what sounds better to our ears. I've heard Quad transistor amps and they didnt sound great to me - but the 22 valve amp sounded great. And so much depends on ancillary equipment - this guy only uses Tannoy Monitor Golds to listen through, so again, who knows what his recommended amps will sound like through anything else.

Trial and error the is the only way - I'm sure Arkless and Beo and Tony know their stuff and this guy also seems to. But I'm only going to trust my own ears whatever anybody else says.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Except he's not arguing that to my eyes, his position seems to be that many widely respected and valuable amps (Leaks, Quads, Radfords etc) are crap because he's seen a few pictures of badly restored examples on eBay and thinks he knows more about electronics that Peter Walker, Harold Leak etc. The reality, borne out by those of us who use them daily, is that these are solid, well made, reliable and very easily serviceable kit that sounds great when used in an appropriate context. I suspect another issue is that these amps all being so popular in the market, so 'classic' in status now effectively reside in the public domain and many users such as myself simply don't need to pay high service costs as anyone who can solder neatly can do it themselves. The information is all out there, parts, kits, even third party upgrade packages are all widely available. The amusing thing is a huge part of his music collection will have been recorded, mixed and mastered using Quad amps, and personally I'd take the purchasing decisions of EMI, Abbey Rd, Decca etc as to whether they are junk or not.

Very good argument! The guy does sound like a rambling fool to me, forming opinions on kit he's never even seen, let alone heard and then posting them on his site does nothing for his credibility.

I'm only going to trust my own ears whatever anybody else says.

Indeed! I'd have sold a lot of my kit years ago if I'd taken others opinions over my own judgment. Thankfully I trust myself enough and I'm happy with what I have.

 

[beammeup]

Certainly agree with that...for us non-tech hobbyists it's difficult to know who's right and who's wrong. We can only go by what sounds better to our ears. I've heard Quad transistor amps and they didnt sound great to me - but the 22 valve amp sounded great. And so much depends on ancillary equipment - this guy only uses Tannoy Monitor Golds to listen through, so again, who knows what his recommended amps will sound like through anything else.

Trial and error the is the only way - I'm sure Arkless and Beo and Tony know their stuff and this guy also seems to. But I'm only going to trust my own ears whatever anybody else says.

Yes, so for you and I treat Quad, Naim, Linn, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer as equals - none is necessarily better than the other. There's not so much Kudos with owning any of the latter three but, what are you in this for? Holding onto an investment? Kudos? Or simply getting the best out of the music?

 

[Tony L]

- this guy only uses Tannoy Monitor Golds to listen through, so again, who knows what his recommended amps will sound like through anything else.

I'd not seen that, but most amusing given Tannoys Monitor Golds driven by Quad 50Es, 303s or 405s was the standard full range monitoring system in the UK and elsewhere from the late '60s to mid '80s. So much truly great music was born through these things.

The above is a pic of the control room at Abbey Road Studio One taken in the early to mid '70s. Visible are a pair of Tannoy Lancasters (likely Golds, possibly Reds), and lurking on the floor beneath the stand is a Quad amp, either a 50E or 303 (likely the former given the location/close proximity to one speaker - the 50E is a mono amp). That's the rig things like Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon and much of EMI's output of the time would have been mixed through, so hardly 'junk' IMHO. You'd find very similar at every other decent UK studio and this type of kit was still in use when I started visiting (rather less prestigious) studios in the 1980s. In fact I don't think I recorded anywhere that didn't have a big pair of Tannoys and a Quad amp, though by the mid to late 80s it was often SRMs, SGMs and a 405 or two.

Select45 also attacks the Quad power amp's high (0.5v) input gain whilst entirely failing to grasp it enables these classic power amps (and the Leak tube power amps etc) to work perfectly and synergistically with a passive preamp, thus giving them a whole new context and lease of life in a modern digital system. These really are some of the easiest amps to service, enjoy and keep in daily use. They deserve their classic status.

 

[LPSpinner]

Hi Guys.

I started to read the stuff on the “select45rpm” and I had to check the calendar to make sure it wast the First of April . The guy presents himself as more than a little bit opinionated and writes an awful lot of tosh. His off the cuff comments speak volumes about his technical proficiency and level of expertise.

I’m also amused at the way you English guys seem to pay out on your own homegrown HiFi. I have owned some of the Asian made gear like Yamaha, Sansui, Pioneer etc. and I currently have a collection made up of some of the better vintage English stuff; naim, QUAD, ARCAM and even an Old Leak Troughline tuner. I must say that although the performance of both the better Japanese kit is probably equal to the English made stuff, the English equipment is put together a whole lot better. Neatly bound wiring looms, careful layout of internal parts and even cast alloy front panels and heavy gauge metal cover plates and panels. Most of the Japanese stuff by comparison seems to be a little carelessly assembled with loose wiring, haphazard assembly of components and rather light weight pressed aluminium front panels.

The English stuff is also styled a little better with a much more individualised appearance. Here in Australia the it all comes in from overseas so the import duties tend to level out the playing field. The English made equipment was, and still is very well regarded and holds it resale value much better than any Japanese Kit. The only exception with the Japanese kit that I can think of are the High end Japanese brands such as Accuphase and the more expensive Nakamichi gear.

Even if the technical performance of the equipment is equal the tactile functionality and end user experience all goes to making the whole musical encounter that little bit more pleasant.

LPSpinner.

 

[paskinn]

That's an interesting perspective, that we don't always get, here in the rainy, chilly, UK. I think the differences between nations is a mixture of culture and economics. The really great British designers, such as Peter Walker, were heavily influenced by the deprivations of the second world war. Remember that many things were rationed deep into the 1950s. Thus the emphasis was on economy and utilitarian design. The Japanese were even more devastated by the war, but also heavily influenced by American popular culture. Thus a more US style of audio became influential. I rather enjoy 'boutique' Japanese products, but still think that simple stuff like the Quad 303 and the 57s take a lot of beating. In fact, the 303 is my all-time favourite bit of kit. Still often use one to this day.

 

[Patcam]

The above is a pic of the control room at Abbey Road Studio One taken in the early to mid '70s. Visible are a pair of Tannoy Lancasters (likely Golds, possibly Reds), and lurking on the floor beneath the stand is a Quad amp, either a 50E or 303 (likely the former given the location/close proximity to one speaker - the 50E is a mono amp). That's the rig things like Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon and much of EMI's output of the time would have been mixed through, so hardly 'junk' IMHO. You'd find very similar at every other decent UK studio and this type of kit was still in use when I started visiting (rather less prestigious) studios in the 1980s. In fact I don't think I recorded anywhere that didn't have a big pair of Tannoys and a Quad amp, though by the mid to late 80s it was often SRMs, SGMs and a 405 or two.

Select45 also attacks the Quad power amp's high (0.5v) input gain whilst entirely failing to grasp it enables these classic power amps (and the Leak tube power amps etc) to work perfectly and synergistically with a passive preamp, thus giving them a whole new context and lease of life in a modern digital system. These really are some of the easiest amps to service, enjoy and keep in daily use. They deserve their classic status.

How can you argue with that? I only heard the 33/303 through smallish inefficient speakers and it was all rather thick and closed in. As I said before, its trial and error - with your own system in your own room. If it sounds good it is good. Synergy is all.

 

[snorbans]

Back to select45, and I'm sure he is reading, I bought a CR800 from him recently. It must of got shook up in the post as it arrived faulty. I didn't get sympathy or great advice on repair and had to spend some money to get it fixed. I was lucky and have ended up with a working amp that sounds just great. Upgraded but I don't have insight into the original sound but my investment makes me want to believe every word on the site. He did pay some money back so I think dealt with ok. I would be unlikely to be get the value back on re sale and I think that has to be borne in mind. It's so much fun to hear a fabled piece if equipment and sell it later without financial loss, perhaps some gain. Anyway the guy shares our hobby and while not above criticism I think it should tackle specific opinions rather than general trolling. Go on jump in get the cr2020 and tell me what I missed

 

[beammeup]

From reading select45's website, your CR800 should sound amazing compared to most of the modern gear

 

[kings1]

NAIM CHROME BUMPERS

 

[Tony L]

How can you argue with that? I only heard the 33/303 through smallish inefficient speakers and it was all rather thick and closed in. As I said before, its trial and error - with your own system in your own room. If it sounds good it is good. Synergy is all.

If you've only heard a 33/303 I'd argue you'd not actually heard a 303 yet! It's a good enough power amp to use some very good preamps upstream, and has a nice high input gain and load so is a perfect partner with a passive pre. I've had great success with mine using it both with an Audio Synthesis stepped attenuator and now a JC Verdier tube preamp. As long as you partner the 303 with appropriate speakers (it doesn't like low impedances or working too hard) it's a lovely sounding amp with an open, relaxed and very natural and spacious presentation. It's an ideal match for many of the speakers of it's era, e.g. Quad ESLs, Tannoys, LS3/5As etc. Sonically it reminds me very much of a nice little tube amp.

 

[cooky1257]

Must say I'm more than happy with my BBC incarnations of Quad's finest, 521F and 240 power amps. Fit and forget, can't see myself buying any another power amps, they just get on with the job of making great music.

 

[hermit]

Anyone thinking of buying a big Japanese vintage integrated should have a close look at this tuner too. Top drawer 70's kit and very rare in the UK.

 

[snorbans]

I was enjoying the thread perhaps it can be revived? My CR800 from the select45rpm does sound great, to me. However let me speak up for box swappers. Not that the cr800 is yet to be swapped but it's a journey, many on here have heard everything and owned everything which reading of can only create a wanderlust in newcomers . Buying low and selling for a bit more is then a nice trick but not likely a main reason to try the box in the 1st place. Anyway the next step in my journey will be a quad 405-2, maybe a 303 then a 34, then Naim, what will they sound like.....etc

 

[toprepairman]

Curiosity got the better of me and I took a look at the 'select45' site.
Had a good scan through his opinions, The guy is a cretin and spews crap.
You can safely ignore everything he says.

 

[Patcam]

Curiosity got the better of me and I took a look at the 'select45' site.
Had a good scan through his opinions, The guy is a cretin and spews crap.
You can safely ignore everything he says.

Well, you may be right...but I'm always suspicious of blanket dismissals without any reasons or justifications. What makes you say we can safely ignore everything he says?

 

[toprepairman]

Just as an example, the following is from his criticism of the Rogers HG88:- 'Still the old Mullard mustard caps that deteriorate too, not that they are poor items, they just age.'
Well this is just utter nonsense. They were pretty well the best caps available at the time. I have serviced stacks of vintage audio gear(Quads Leaks etc) and have had to replace lots of caps on them, but have never had a faulty mustard that needed replacing. They are super film/foil caps that are every bit as good today as they were then, and will outlive most boutique and paper oil types, even the Russian ones of recent production.

 

[istari_knight]

Agree with Toprepairman, the 45rpm bloke talks a lot of rubbish & would appear to believe it himself (dangerous.)

Still, its hardly surprising is it? Vintage audio restorer/repairer claims all modern equipment he cant earn money on is rubbish - What a shocker! Hifi as a hobby does seem to attract a disproportionate number of eccentrics, only some aren't eccentric but utter loons.