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Linn Ekos2 v Naim Aro

Nick Urfe said:
Here is an article by Bill Firebaugh...
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It is an interesting point of view, what he is essentially saying is that large degrees of tracking error result in relatively small levels of 2nd harmonic distortion, which are not, to quote his words, 'injurious of musical quality.'

Naim, like Bill Firebaugh, most likely thought that the gains outweighed the losses when they looked at the question of slot vs. hole.

Whatever, I still think that it is a great arm, and I've never regretted buying mine, hence the rationale behind me buying a new Aro arm base for it recently.
 
muzzer said:
nice midband but no real bass and crap treble.
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This is the 'popular' criticism of the Aro and is, in my experience, complete and utter rubbish (in fact, this thread already contains no shortage of similarly poorly informed verbiage).

I wonder what alternative nonsense you would have been told had you just bought an Aro and were asking about the Ekos...
 
YNWOAN said:
This is the 'popular' criticism of the Aro and is, in my experience, complete and utter rubbish.

I wonder what alternative nonsense you would have been told had you just bought an Aro and were asking about the Ekos...
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i totally agree with you. To say one is booming and tizz and the other only has a midband is plain wrong.... tells me that people are not listening to the music very intently which is probably the dealers fault.

any long term owner of either would explain it in such simple and unfair ways really....

yes the aro is more forgiving possibly even silky but the ekos certainly does not sound mechanical....
 
wylton said:
It is an interesting point of view, what he is essentially saying is that large degrees of tracking error result in relatively small levels of 2nd harmonic distortion, which are not, to quote his words, 'injurious of musical quality.'

Naim, like Bill Firebaugh, most likely thought that the gains outweighed the losses when they looked at the question of slot vs. hole.
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Bingo. The slotted headshell version lost too much rigidity and was deemed the greater compromise, hence the decision to go with fixed holes.
 
Mignun said:
Bingo. The slotted headshell version lost too much rigidity and was deemed the greater compromise, hence the decision to go with fixed holes.
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It can't be about rigidity or stiffness as all arms are already massively over specified given the load exerted by the cartridge cantilever. Think about it, you could not deform a head shell with you fingers and the force from a stylus/cantilever is more like tickling it with a feather. The only thing that would make any sense would be changes in the resonant structure if the whole are when you have slots or holes.
 
Mignun said:
Bingo. The slotted headshell version lost too much rigidity and was deemed the greater compromise, hence the decision to go with fixed holes.
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i was told different by naim when i used to sell em'

i sold into double figures of this arm and not just on lp12's...

I think the ridgity thing is an internet myth.... no one at naim ever said anything to me about that....
 
What does make a significant difference to distortion levels are changes in cartridge offset angle. Such errors are very easy to introduce with a slotted headshell.
 
I guess that rigidity and resonance are inter-related here. Bottom line, Naim concluded that the slotted headshell didn't sound as good as the holes. I discussed with RG at length about this. Naim machined a few with slots and based on the results I was strongly dissuaded from having the same done. We discussed a sliding rack on the armbase as an option but when you consider the Aro design, this was deemed as arguably an even greater compromise. The answer is to choose your cartridge with care, make use of any armboard mounting tolerance, and then just stop worrying about it.

I have another Aro base and bearing mounted on my Loricraft and the base is a nicely machined metal lump with a degree of adjustment built into it. This does allow close to perfect alignment with most cartridges. The slight tolerance with the Sondek armboard allows something similar, albeit not as much adjustment. I can swap armtops back and forth between them and get good alignment from either with most of my carts.
 
The rigidity issue over slots and holes in the head shell is absolute crap! As said earlier you would not be able crush them and so rigidity doesn't come into it. If you believe it's a rigidity thing then your a fool and will believe any hype. I'm an engineer and understand the need for making things rigid but for holding a cartridge do me favour when your talking about holes and slots! However, resonance will be different with both mounting systems but whether you would be able to hear the difference sonically would be open to debate, just like lots of things spoken about in hifi circles.
 
Blurboy said:
The rigidity issue over slots and holes in the head shell is absolute crap! As said earlier you would not be able crush them and so rigidity doesn't come into it. If you believe it's a rigidity thing then your a fool and will believe any hype. I'm an engineer and understand the need for making things rigid but for holding a cartridge do me favour when your talking about holes and slots! However, resonance will be different with both mounting systems but whether you would be able to hear the difference sonically would be open to debate, just like lots of things spoken about in hifi circles.
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OK, given that you come across as being "the Oracle" why do you think the Naim engineers "went against the tide" and released their arm with cartridge bolt holes only? Because in terms of "pros & cons", there's one very big con for the Aro - that of cartridge alignment when you use carts which have a different bolt-hole-to-stylus distance (than the Linn Akiva, I think it was, that the Aro was designed for).

It seems to me they must have had good reason. :p

While you're at it, given I think it was Linn who introduced the 3-point mounting system for cartridges (to give a more rigid coupling to the headshell) ... why doesn't everyone else follow suit, if this really does have an advantage?


Regards,

Andy
 
The ARO was designed for the Troika IIRC.

As you say Andy, why would Naim deliberately compromise the selling potential of the ARO if it wasn't for good reason?

Coincidentally I'm currently test-driving an LP12 fitted with an Ekos Mk2 (to assess the Ureka against my current Superline). It's very good in some ways but I do prefer the sound of my ARO (and Superline)
 
If I could use an analogy, if you mounted a wheel on a car using 2 bolts and it worked, using 3 or 4 bolts would actually make it more rigid. If a cartridge could be held by 10 bolts, its structural integrity to its arm would be greater than 2 so hence Linn's decision to use 3. But as the forces involved in mounting a cartridge and a wheel are totally different, for its purposes 2 would be fine and please remember manufacturers will make changes to products just to make you tie in with their at it generates sales. Apple with its iPhone 5 connector for instance. I'm not saying some aren't better but I was addressing the rigidity debate and just because Naim do something doesn't necessarily make it gospel. Oh and I do use Naim gear too but will stress some of their products they've made haven't been that good. I use my ears and as they're mine it's what makes me happy that counts.
 
Suffolk Tony said:
The ARO was designed for the Troika IIRC.

As you say Andy, why would Naim deliberately compromise the selling potential of the ARO if it wasn't for good reason?

Coincidentally I'm currently test-driving an LP12 fitted with an Ekos Mk2 (to assess the Ureka against my current Superline). It's very good in some ways but I do prefer the sound of my ARO (and Superline)
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Tony,
What cartridge is in your demo Ekos 2?
Not really the best way to asses a Radikal and Urika imo.
The two arms sound so very different even with the same cartridge with or without their respective Keels.
Barry.
 
Hi Barry, I'm using a Dynavector TKR, & one's fitted into the Ekos SE; I agree it's perhaps not the ideal way to assess the Radikal/Urika but I do like to try these things at home & to duplicate my LP12 would be rather difficult! I'm pretty good generally at listening "Beyond" differences, as long as I've got time & the Ekos has a definite character which I'm familiar with.
 
Blurboy said:
If I could use an analogy, if you mounted a wheel on a car using 2 bolts and it worked, using 3 or 4 bolts would actually make it more rigid. If a cartridge could be held by 10 bolts, its structural integrity to its arm would be greater than 2 so hence Linn's decision to use 3. But as the forces involved in mounting a cartridge and a wheel are totally different, for its purposes 2 would be fine and please remember manufacturers will make changes to products just to make you tie in with their at it generates sales. Apple with its iPhone 5 connector for instance. I'm not saying some aren't better but I was addressing the rigidity debate and just because Naim do something doesn't necessarily make it gospel. Oh and I do use Naim gear too but will stress some of their products they've made haven't been that good. I use my ears and as they're mine it's what makes me happy that counts.
Click to expand...

Please answer my other Qu, BB ... why do you think Naim "went against the tide" (by producing an arm with bolt holes, rather than slots)?

Regards,

Andy
 
Intersting debate this. It seems to me that vinyl replay always requires compromises and/or assumptions with respect to design, setup and/or alignment. The ARO presents a unique set of compromises, but then so does every other arm. There is no absolute right or wrong to this. If the ARO is for you, then you will be comfortable with the choices made by the designers and the inherent compromises. If you choose an alternative arm, then you opt for an alternate set of design choices and compromises.

FWIW I run an ARO and think it is a magnificent arm. In the past I have enjoyed SMEs, Regas and Rega clones (inter alia) on other decks with fixed and detachable headshells and slots...
 
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