USB cable group test in HFN

[Whaleblue]

This is audio's evolution vs. creation 'debate'. It cannot be resolved because both sides know they are 'right', but 'right' within a series of boundaries that contradict one another.

Not sure that's true. My interest was the differences (and associated dogmas). I'd like to think we have blunted some of it a little.

Away from such arguments, interesting and genuine theological and scientific discussion and development continue to take place, and it's only the intellectually undernourished and the emotionally needy that feel a need to continue the endless argument.

Food for thought. Irony not actualy intended.

 

[adamdea]

Somewhere in the is short thread a number was given as to the frequencies isolators are effective to, whether this results in impacting SQ to enough of an extent for audibility - this I don't know but it's more likely than digital corruption without chirps and clicks.

Also....a number of DACs use the 5V to some extent and this trend seems to be growing. I don't believe isolators are anywhere near sufficient for cleaning switching noise, if this were the case it would be so simple to get clean power.

The problem with all of this is that if the 5V connection or the ground connection is the problem, then the solution would be to cut them, or have them supplied from a separate source. Item (bless him) sold a cable for about a fiver which allowed you to do that. This plus a clean 5v supply ("=£20 maybe) should solve the dreaded 5v supply problem. [of course one shouldn't ignore the real point that there is no evidence for a 5v problem with any decent dac anyway, but let's go with it]

But none of the cables in this test had separate 5v supplies did they? They were just wires. If the computer's sending poison down the wire they are just going to conduct it. So none of this can possibly explain the "fact" (ha ha ha ) of hearing differences between these usb cables. And if the 5v supply is the problem, none of these can possibly be the solution.

 

[Joe Hutch]

It's interesting how these 'scientific' explanations are brought out only when a relatively expensive item is under discussion (whether that something is a fancy cable, an anti-ageing cream or complementary medicine).

 

[maxflinn]

HDMI cables? I have no opinion one way or the other.

That's interesting, as you seem quite technical minded, I would have thought that you would know that working HDMI cables do not offer varying levels of performance.

 

[clivem2]

The problem with all of this is that if the 5V connection or the ground connection is the problem, then the solution would be to cut them, or have them supplied from a separate source. Item (bless him) sold a cable for about a fiver which allowed you to do that. This plus a clean 5v supply ("=£20 maybe) should solve the dreaded 5v supply problem. [of course one shouldn't ignore the real point that there is no evidence for a 5v problem with any decent dac anyway, but let's go with it]

When I've cut the 5V VBUS line there's been an improvement in sound. This is what I alluded to in what I think was post #447.

Sometimes you can cut the ground, sometimes you need it.

But none of the cables in this test had separate 5v supplies did they? They were just wires. If the computer's sending poison down the wire they are just going to conduct it. So none of this can possibly explain the "fact" (ha ha ha ) of hearing differences between these usb cables. And if the 5v supply is the problem, none of these can possibly be the solution.

The Wireworld cable for starters has it's own method of shielding the VBUS and ground wires way in excess of the USB standard, this may have some effect. I expect some or all of the other cables will do something in this area but I can't know without buying them and cutting them up.

 

[jcbrum]

. . . railing against it is like bursting into a church and telling the congregation they are delusional, and then wondering why the congregation don't thank you for freeing them from their religious insanity.

Dawkins seems to do alright out of it.

He gets a lot of media coverage, which is only provided because people think it's important.

JC

 

[sergeauckland]

Ever thought it ultimately comes down to giving the readers what they want?

The 'it makes no difference' brigade are in the minority even in the turbulent waters of forums. When it comes to the surviving readers of hi-fi magazines, it's close to heretical thought.

While I don't think this amounts to anything significant to anyone other than the most rabid hi-fi nutcase, the need to write such a feature to appeal to 'civilians' is effectively zero. So the test is directed at those who are expecting a result from such a test.

In part the problem is that the possibility of a review concluding 'they all sound the same' or 'don't waste your money' is unlikely for fear of upsetting those surviving readers.

The lunacy on the part of those railing against such things is the expectation that anyone gives a tinker's cuss outside of a very small block of people, most of whom have already made up their minds that things do or don't make a difference. This is why I likened this to the creation vs. evolution debate.

In other news, the writers for the Tablet and the Watchtower have asked themselves repeatedly whether God exists and have come up with the answer - Yes!

Why expect anything different from hi-fi's monthly pulpits? More to the point, railing against it is like bursting into a church and telling the congregation they are delusional, and then wondering why the congregation don't thank you for freeing them from their religious insanity.

A really excellent analogy. Nevertheless, I wonder whether the writers for Tablet and The Watchtower have ever properly analysed the evidence for the existence of God. In the absence of proper scientific and verifiable evidence, (for which there is none for the existence of God) I would expect the best position is scepticism, not faith.

In this forum, we can do very little for people's religious illusions, perhaps those of us who feel strongly about these things should post the opposing view on a Christian forum. Nevertheless, this being a HiFi forum, we can do something about the pseudo-science that's being used to sell Foo. I accept the earlier comment that if HiFi buyers stopped buying cables, many HiFi shops would close, like pharmacies who need to sell face-creams to stay in business. I appreciate the consequences if people stopped buying foo, but is an industry that continues only by selling lies worth preserving?

S.

 

[Tony L]

<moderating>

Once again I've pulled a few posts that were too close to being libellous - they appeared to be making accusations of corruption, so clearly have no place within this site's AUP.

 

[paul auster]

Ah serge , but the funny thing is , even though you do not see it , it is you who belongs the absolutist watch tower brigade except your god is measurement and science .

A far less pernicious way of looking it , is that the humans develop through dialectic dialogue . hfn news outlined its position and this thread is simply people having their democratic right of reply in order that we may learn and develop .

 

[adamdea]

When I've cut the 5V VBUS line there's been an improvement in sound. This is what I alluded to in what I think was post #447.

Sometimes you can cut the ground, sometimes you need it.


The Wireworld cable for starters has it's own method of shielding the VBUS and ground wires way in excess of the USB standard, this may have some effect. I expect some or all of the other cables will do something in this area but I can't know without buying them and cutting them up.

Yes but it's important get straight that the major impact of the 5v cable is going to be down the wire. Surely you have to follow the logic that the effect of inductance etc via the internal geometry is bound to be orders of magnitude lower than the effect of conduction through the wire. It's what wire is for .

In any event SQ made the point about 400 posts ago that the effect of a 5v dc current is going to be marginal. btw if the dac doesn't use the 5v signal there won't be any current flowing through the 5v wire.

In any event the hypothesis about interaction of the 5v line with the signal cable is just going round in circles. It won't impact on the data recovery nor is there a recovered clock to corrupt. The 5v interaction hypothesis is no different from theorising that some interference from the trasnport down the signal line will affect the data recovery ie it's back to postulating that the shape of the signal will make a difference to an asynch usb dac.

 

[clivem2]

In any event SQ made the point about 400 posts ago that the effect of a 5v dc current is going to be marginal. btw if the dac doesn't use the 5v signal there won't be any current flowing through the 5v wire.

The SQ comment was in relation to the 5V wires being able to corrupt the digital wires. This was not my assertion, it was the digital wires corrupting the 5V wires (including ground). SQ apologized for mis-reading my post.

In any event the hypothesis about interaction of the 5v line with the signal cable is just going round in circles. It won't impact on the data recovery nor is there a recovered clock to corrupt. The 5v interaction hypothesis is no different from theorising that some interference from the trasnport down the signal line will affect the data recovery ie it's back to postulating that the shape of the signal will make a difference to an asynch usb dac.

Where am I saying there is impact on the digital side of the DAC? If we are going around in circles it is because you think I'm saying there is digital corruption. I am not saying this.

 

[Evil Emperor]

A really excellent analogy. Nevertheless, I wonder whether the writers for Tablet and The Watchtower have ever properly analysed the evidence for the existence of God. In the absence of proper scientific and verifiable evidence, (for which there is none for the existence of God) I would expect the best position is scepticism, not faith.

In this forum, we can do very little for people's religious illusions, perhaps those of us who feel strongly about these things should post the opposing view on a Christian forum. Nevertheless, this being a HiFi forum, we can do something about the pseudo-science that's being used to sell Foo. I accept the earlier comment that if HiFi buyers stopped buying cables, many HiFi shops would close, like pharmacies who need to sell face-creams to stay in business. I appreciate the consequences if people stopped buying foo, but is an industry that continues only by selling lies worth preserving?

S.

If the industry brings some people a great degree of joy and entertainment... of course. I don't like about 95% of the terrible rubbish that Sky's channels bring to the television set, but if all those dreadful channels help fund Sky Atlantic and its excellent programming, I'll happily put up with dreck programmes about psychics, Area 51 and a thousand hours of football per week if it keeps a regular supply of breasts from Game of Thrones bouncing round my screen.

I don't have to watch them (programmes about Area 51 that is, not the breasts), and you don't have to buy cables. But someone does, or the wheels come off the wagon.

I also find this desire to extinguish a hobby by those wanting to police the hobby exceptionally strange, and unique to hi-fi. Why are you still interested in hi-fi if you think it doesn't deserve saving?

 

[F1eng]

Ah serge , but the funny thing is , even though you do not see it , it is you who belongs the absolutist watch tower brigade except your god is measurement and science .

A far less pernicious way of looking it , is that the humans develop through dialectic dialogue . hfn news outlined its position and this thread is simply people having their democratic right of reply in order that we may learn and develop .

I think it is logical to link the science of Physics with the evolution side of the analogy, and religion with the believe despite evidence of any objective facts.
That seems fair enough.

I don't think anybody is preventing anybody else having a right to reply, are they? Though what that has to do with democracy escapes me.
Whilst human philosophy may well indeed develop through dialectic dialogue science requires more than that in order to be rigorous.
In my psychology lectures at college one professor quoted an example which is brought to mind often by these sort of threads (cable, analogue v digital).
He said that behaviourists believe that the reason one sometimes mistakenly writes the previous year on January dated cheques is that one has got so used to writing the previous year's date that it takes a while to aclimatise to the new year. Freudians believe that is because of a subconcious urge to stay younger and retain one's sex drive. Both perfectly reasonable for dialectic debate...

On reflection I am with science on this. It is obvioiusly possible that there is some hitherto undiscovered feature of passing music data down a wire that is wholly unrelated to passing any other sort of data down a wire. But is seems unlikely.
If there -was- some hitherto undiscovered feature of passing -any- signal down a wire then it is unlikely we would have been able to engineer things like microwaves, computers and so forth.

 

[Peter Stockwell]

In any event SQ made the point about 400 posts ago that the effect of a 5v dc current is going to be marginal. btw if the dac doesn't use the 5v signal there won't be any current flowing through the 5v wire.

Everybody is having so much fun here, couldn't resist pitching in. I think it was JKenny or John Westlake, I can't remember now, who wrote that noise on the 5v line would effect the jitter performance of a DAC. If it was just bits is bits, all would be so simple.

I put a linear power supply on my little server computer (Intel NUC Celeron 847 - it cost £250, it was for a Temple Audio Bantam Gold). Of course I haven't done double blind testing on it, I wasn't expecting much, and I didn't get much of a difference, but I think that I'm getting more clarity, better definition. It's definitely moot whether it's worth £250 to do that, but the iFi iusb is £199, or thereabouts, so you can easily spend that money to break that 5V DC connection.

Most dacs use the 5v from the computer, I think it's to allow the computer to sync the sound card correctly (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[ultrawomble]

But in the HFN test, there was no direct 5V connection to the DAC - the setup was:

Sony Vaio => Musical Fidelity M1 S-DAC (as a USB-to-S/PDIF converter only) => coax to digital-in of Devialet D-Premier ADH amplifier.

 

[formbypc]

That's interesting, as you seem quite technical minded, I would have thought that you would know that working HDMI cables do not offer varying levels of performance.

I have only three HDMI cables in the house. Up until mid-2012, I had none, and all DVD players were connected to TVs with SCART.

I now have the DVD machines and a low-end Panasonic BD player thru HDMI to a newer TV, but the HDMIs are all no-name generic items. I haven't compared one to the other - because of varying lengths, I can't swap them between machines to compare, and I haven't got others to swap them with. The longest of them, at 2m, is prone to white static 'flashes' on-screen, and audio dropout, but since the layout prevents me from swapping that with another, I haven't concluded definitively that this is cable-induced.

Therefore, I have no concrete view on whether or not various HDMI cables perform differently.

I can easily admit the possibility that they do, but I find it difficult to admit the possibility that you can definitively state that they don't, based only on the subset of current scientific 'fact' that you determine is relevant.

 

[sergeauckland]

Ah serge , but the funny thing is , even though you do not see it , it is you who belongs the absolutist watch tower brigade except your god is measurement and science .

A far less pernicious way of looking it , is that the humans develop through dialectic dialogue . hfn news outlined its position and this thread is simply people having their democratic right of reply in order that we may learn and develop .

I accept that my God is reason and science. I reject utterly anything that's based on faith in the supernatural. In HiFi terms (remember HiFi? There are some Forums dedicated to it I'm told...) that means anything that can't be measured or reasoned through logically. Anything that requires new science to explain when old science does a perfectly good job of rejecting I refuse to accept.

I would much rather be proved wrong than believe in the audio equivalent of fairies.

S.

 

[Mescalito]

I accept that my God is reason and science. I reject utterly anything that's based on faith in the supernatural. In HiFi terms (remember HiFi? There are some Forums dedicated to it I'm told...) that means anything that can't be measured or reasoned through logically. Anything that requires new science to explain when old science does a perfectly good job of rejecting I refuse to accept.

I would much rather be proved wrong than believe in the audio equivalent of fairies.

S.

Well said, Sir

Chris

 

[Werner]

Why are you still interested in hi-fi if you think it doesn't deserve saving?

How about saving it by cutting off the bad parts?

Money changing hands for foo may be fine for the dealers, but apart of this it does generally not advance the state of the art, and it is money lost to companies who do try to sell a decent product. One might even say that it is money lost to the audio industry itself, because, in the end, jewel cables, tiny copper cups, and fancy wood blocks have nothing to do with audio or music.

who wrote that noise on the 5v line would effect the jitter performance of a DAC.

'could', not 'would', but yes, a noisy supply rail can indeed be a cause of jitter. That is why competent engineering attempts to keep supply/ground noise low in the vicinity of circuits where it might matter.

The 5V off a USB cable has a big yellow sticker 'CRAPPY 5 BE HERE' around its neck. No-one in his right mind would use this supply for anything remotely cricital, except where it is necessary because of cost or utility.

Most dacs use the 5v from the computer, I think it's to allow the computer to sync the sound card correctly (correct me if I'm wrong).

That may or may not be true. I don't know, nor care. But if true then this still does not mean that these DACs use the 5V for anything else than link setup, and it does not mean that these DACs do not entirely isolate the USB 5V/gnd from the rest of the design. Chips doing this cost, oh, $5.

Conversely, a DAC lacking such isolation would most likely exhibit a sub-par measured noise and perhaps jitter performance when driven by a computer doing whatever it is that computers do. And even more so when the whole lot is part of an actual system, and not just the test bench.

But in the HFN test, there was no direct 5V connection to the DAC -

I wondered how long it would take before someone re-emphasised this.

 

[paul auster]

I accept that my God is reason and science. I reject utterly anything that's based on faith in the supernatural. In HiFi terms (remember HiFi? There are some Forums dedicated to it I'm told...) that means anything that can't be measured or reasoned through logically. Anything that requires new science to explain when old science does a perfectly good job of rejecting I refuse to accept.

I would much rather be proved wrong than believe in the audio equivalent of fairies.

S.

I refer you to my previous post on facts. which you failed to address and in the opinion of one person caused you to flounce off Whilst science and measurement is founded upon repetition and empirical observation it is simply not true to say there is not an element of faith in the canon of explanation .

hifi is a peripheral pastime , there is no great search for measurements or tests to prove the differences people perceive are real and in the end it simply does not matter because it is the most subjective of past times , so if a person perceives a difference via a cable then so be it they do not need your absolutist bollocks telling them they are idiots .

this of course does leave the door open for charlatans but the only thing you can ask for is absolute transparency and full disclosure .