expanding my opera "collection"

[Thomas K]

Chaps.

I hardly listen to classical music at all, but recently I've been enjoying the three operas that I've got: "Tosca" (Davis, Caballe, Carreras), "Don Giovanni" (Giulini, Wächter) and "La Traviata" (Ghione, Callas, Kraus), all on LP. On a deeper level I still find the concept of opera singing silly, but there's something pleasing about the back and forth between the vocal parts and the orchestral bits. A large part of the perceived silliness stems from my inability to understand the vocals (regardless of the language), but once I have a closer look at the libretto it gets better.

Of these three, I like the Mozart the least since I find it a tad leaden. Taking the Puccini and the Verdi as starting points, where would you recommend I head next? Based purely on the subject matter, I've been keeping an eye out on Carmen and Madama Butterfly -- which recordings are considered definitive?

 

[TheDecameron]

Cavalleria Rustica & I Pagliacci next (Mascagni and Leoncavallo) a double set. If you like Puccini, you'll love this.

 

[vuk]

Based purely on the subject matter, I've been keeping an eye out on Carmen

aaaaggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you realize the next step, as with nietzsche, is insanity.

thomas, i hope it's OK to point out to everyone that you are german. so, if a southern slav is able to experience the greatness of wagner's ring cycle, how difficult should this be for you?

now the problem is that we do not really have a good one that is particularly well-recorded, largely because there are hardly any conductors post-1950s who understand wagner or singers who can sing it properly. people do go on about the solti set on decca, but that is merely a set of orgasmic outburts with a feeble attempt to connect them. a psychologically cartoonish rendering, it can, however, be a reasonable start if you keep in mind that the boring bits between climaxes do no have to be so.

furtwängler and knappertsbusch are my favourite interpreters, but i don't think you will be happy with the audio fidelity. an excellent, minor compromise would be this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E5KQL4/?tag=pinkfishmedia-20

in the end, you will need to own at least a half dozen rings.


a couple of other operas worth exploring way before you whore yourself out to the likes of carmen are:

and

yes, karajan. you should be able to find this on LP quite easily.



vuk.

p.s. if you are comfortable with 20th century inaccessible styles, then i would add this to the list, as well:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000057LX/?tag=pinkfishmedia-20

 

[Joe P]

Thomas,

Probably more Wagner than you'd ever want to listen to, but, hey, only 68 euros.

Joe

 

[vuk]

On a deeper level I still find the concept of opera singing silly

thomas.

just about anything in life that's worthwhile is ultimately silly. fiddling around with audio to achieve musicality, bouncing around in a bed with girls, shaving with a precise german razor after lathering up with a custom badger brush and artisan soap, fussing over the nuances of language, spending a year formulating a fragrance, distilling bourbon and aging it for 12 years or more...


vuk.

 

[Darth Vader]

With Mozart try 'The Marriage of Figaro'. Its a cheeky comedy with some glorious multi part harmony. In order to 'get' opera you need the DVD so that the music and singing is matched to the action. For example the above opera opens with Figaro on the floor of his small bedroom measuring up to see if his marriage bed will fit and it gets crazier from then on.

Cheers and enjoy,

DV

PS Forget Wagner for now as it'll drive you crazy. Oh and I have several versions of the ring including the full libretto and analysis in a five volume book set!

 

[vuk]

Thomas,

Probably more Wagner than you'd ever want to listen to, but, hey, only 68 euros.

that approach is wrong on so many levels, the fundamental being that everything before the ring was practice and what followed was misguided. that said, die meistersinger von nürnberg can be great fun once in a while.

With Mozart try 'The Marriage of Figaro'. Its a cheeky comedy with some glorious multi part harmony. In order to 'get' opera you need the DVD so that the music and singing is matched to the action. For example the above opera opens with Figaro on the floor of his small bedroom measuring up to see if his marriage bed will fit and it gets crazier from then on.

that is also a good suggestion and i second watching it, at least the first time.



vuk.

 

[Joe P]

Vuk,

that approach is wrong on so many levels, the fundamental being that everything before the ring was practice and what followed was misguided. that said, die meistersinger von nürnberg can be great fun once in a while.

Look at it this way: You get the complete ring in a pretty box for 68 euros, plus some other crap.

Joe

 

[Mark Pope]

Thomas,

La Boheme comes highly recommended. I have very happy memories of seeing this performed by the Welsh National Opera way back when and it was fantastic. It's still my favourite, closely followed by Tosca.

Rigolletto is also worth a listen.

The Verdi/Pucinni operas tend to follow a similar formula, namely: boy meets girl, they fall in love, they fall out, they fall back in love again, girl dies tragically, the end.

Beethoven's Fidelio is also pretty good, though this IIRC has a happy ending, which after seeing/listening to Verdi/Pucinni comes as a bit of a shock

If you can get to watch opera live, then do so as it is so much better than listening to a recording or watching the DVD.

 

[Barrymagrec]

in the end, you will need to own at least a half dozen rings.

Yes, but not yet.

Best Carmen http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00004U0C5/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Best Butterfly http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00006BCDH/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

All Puccini is wonderful, try The Girl of the Golden West http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000041UN/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

For something more modern perhaps Janacek http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000041RA/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

There is so much more....

 

[Thomas K]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, gents.

Somehow I knew (feared ;-) Vuk would be coming in with the Ring. Vuk, I don't mind the inferior audio quality of historical recordings -- the Traviata I have is anything but audiophile. But the Ring!? At this stage in my appreciation of opera? Is that not akin to handing a 19-year-old with two year's practice in electric shaving a Mühle R41 and telling him that one must not use lather in conjunction with this razor?

As for the Mozart recommendations: I can't put my finger on it, but there's something about his compositional style that I find a bit too street. Or calculating. That said, I have actually seen "Figaro" -- it was almost 20 years ago in the Royal Opera House in London and I remember that opening scene! Perhaps I'll give that a try.

What's wrong with Carmen, then? (Genuine question, as I've not knowingly heard any excerpts.) You know I'm a dirty hispanophile, and that's pretty much all my curiosity is based on. And on the Carlos Saura film with my hero de Lucia and an electrifying ensemble dance scene.

 

[Bob McC]

Go to your local Cineworld chain. They are showing live simulcasts of several operas in the next few months.

 

[Barrymagrec]

Somehow I knew (feared ;-) Vuk would be coming in with the Ring. Vuk, I don't mind the inferior audio quality of historical recordings -- the Traviata I have is anything but audiophile. But the Ring!? At this stage in my appreciation of opera? Is that not akin to handing a 19-year-old with two year's practice in electric shaving a Mühle R41 and telling him that one must not use lather in conjunction with this razor?



What's wrong with Carmen, then? (Genuine question, as I've not knowingly heard any excerpts.) You know I'm a dirty hispanophile, and that's pretty much all my curiosity is based on. And on the Carlos Saura film with my hero de Lucia and an electrifying ensemble dance scene.

The first piece of opera I knowingly heard was the Ride of the Valkyries on a couple of single sided test pressings from a 1951 Bayreuth performance. I liked it a lot yet it was over 30 years before I felt the need to listen to more Wagner - but once started you can`t stop.

What`s wrong with Carmen? - absolutely nothing - so long as you get a good performance, and this lets out a lot of modern recordings, in my opinion.

 

[vuk]

Somehow I knew (feared ;-) Vuk would be coming in with the Ring. Vuk, I don't mind the inferior audio quality of historical recordings -- the Traviata I have is anything but audiophile. But the Ring!? At this stage in my appreciation of opera? Is that not akin to handing a 19-year-old with two year's practice in electric shaving a Mühle R41 and telling him that one must not use lather in conjunction with this razor?

italian opera doesn't do much in the way of preparing one for wagner's ring. in fact it has hindered many people who expect set-pieces they will be able to blast out in the shower or whilst folding the laundry (in a roman apartment / neorealist film). if anything, john coltrane is a better preparation and that's if you're really obsessed with following all the leitmotif interweaving. also, unlike a bad shave with a dangerous razor, how much will it hurt, if a couple of hours of das rheingold you decide it's not quite your cup of wine?

As for the Mozart recommendations: I can't put my finger on it, but there's something about his compositional style that I find a bit too street. Or calculating.

thomas, mozart did not grow up in the 20th century ;-) his whole genius is to make something brilliant in spite of the formal constraints of the era. he also somehow managed to preserve popular appeal. magic flute was actually a musical for the unwashed masses, but that didn't stop him turning it into something that functioned simultaneously as an operatic masterpiece.

What's wrong with Carmen, then?

what's wrong with phantom of the opera? or how about this: french opera is to german opera what french philosophy is to...


vuk.

 

[palpnorte]

vuk, as always in matters Wagnerian, is of course right, but really - you actually do need to see opera. If you don't, it's a bit like trying to appreciate a scrumptious curry by merely running it through your fingers rather than putting it in your mouth.

It is about extremes. Extreme situations, extreme emotion, extreme musical expression, extreme dress sizes. With luck, this music / emotion combination thing triggers an astonishing alchemical response at a deep level in the viewer to the extent that it is possible to believe that, even though you have seen an opera a dozen times, THIS time, just for THIS once , it will be different; Pinkerton will come back, Violetta will get some superior cough mixture, Caravadossi

Spoiler

will not get shot, and that slapper Tosca will live to a happy old age in Trastevere.

An example: Carmen is for some reason the opera that people always recommend for newbies. As vuk says, can't see it myself - why not just go for the good stuff? Anyway - here is Jonas Kaufmann, arguably the greatest tenor in living memory and who is just beginning to attack the great Wagnerian roles in a way that makes us lucky to be alive to witness his attempts, in Carmen at Covent Garden. Don Jose finally realises that Carmen does not love him. Watch it and then tell me that it is possible get by with merely a CD...

I'm coming round to the idea that failing an actual theatrical performance in the stalls, then Blu-ray and a good pair of speakers / headphones is as good as you're going to get. So much good stuff, and then with a real acquaintance of an opera as a complete experience, maybe then is the time to plunder recordings from the past. We really are so lucky.

 

[vuk]

vuk, as always in matters Wagnerian, is of course right, but really - you actually do need to see opera. If you don't, it's a bit like trying to appreciate a scrumptious curry by merely running it through your fingers rather than putting it in your mouth.

perhaps it's because of my ever-willing imagination and lack of aesthetic forgiveness, but i would rather just listen to it and invent the visuals than suffer through certain avant-garde stage designs and sopranos with voracious appetites--why can't they all be like this:

the luckiest dude ever is walter legge, who not only got to sleep with her, but fiddle in the recording studio with the likes of klemperer.


vuk.

p.s. we were very impressed by kauffman over here. i hope the met nabs him for siegfried soon.

 

[palpnorte]

Why wonder?

http://www.amazon.com/Rosenkavalier-Film-Blu-ray-Elisabeth-Schwarzkopf/dp/B0043988GW/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1367170908&sr=1-1&keywords=rosenkavalier

Schwarzkopf in HD. Bit of a period piece, but very very good.

Kaufmann is something else. Have you heard the “Walse, Walse” bit in Ein Schwert Verhieß Mir Der Vater from Walkurie? Christ on a bike.

 

[vuk]

Kaufmann is something else. Have you heard the “Walse, Walse” bit in Ein Schwert Verhieß Mir Der Vater from Walkurie? Christ on a bike.

wow. even with donald runnicles doing his best to ruin it all.

thomas: here's another brilliant thing about the ring. this "young" man is 43 and just about ready to tackle the role of siegfried. you will soon be growing long curly locks to emulate. good times are ahead and it will all be wasted on you if you choose to pursue carmen instead--the very opera warns of that!



vuk.

 

[vuk]

palp.

here is a big exception, by zeffirelli:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000T0XEGS/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21


...and i normally hate opera movies (though probably because they are usually carmen).


something i fantasized about in my 20s was making a no-holds-barred film series of the ring. imagine opening up with topless rheinmaidens ;-) at the very least, i hoped some genius director would do it. instead, we got that video game rendering of some childish fantasy novels in new zealand.



vuk.

p.s. thomas, you have to watch the zeffirelli film. in fact, it's probably the best thing ever to hook a person to opera.

 

[topoxforddoc]

Thomas,
In order to really get into opera, you do need to go and see one live. There must be plenty of opera houses in Germany. I can't imagine opera being as elitist an art form as it is in the UK.
Pick a great opera with a dramatic story line e.g. Mozart's Don Giovanni (yes it is really good), Puccini's Tosca, Verdi's Rigoletto or Aida, Bizet's Carmen. Experience one live and you will then understand.
Then once you have decided which composer(s) you like, then explore them more with LPs.

Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk