can someone please explain level matched tests?

[Brian]

I agree, level is of no importance when using long-term listening. But then, long-term listening is of no practical value if trying to judge if two items are different, only which one you prefer. This preference could be for sonic reasons or it could be for cosmetic, ergonomic, financial reasons, nothing to do with the sound.

If one wants to be sure one's only comparing the sound, then it has to be blind, and level matched. That rather precludes long-term listening, although theoretically it could be possible to lock the volume control and hide the identity of the two items.

S.

Serge,

It has happened from time to time but I try not to set out to judge whether 2 components are the same or different, I've no real interest in that kind of comparison because I think it's quite pointless.

If I'm interested in a dac (for example) I'll try to get one on loan and just add it to the system and listen to my music in the same manner I always do. At some point in time I'll take the dac out of the system and listen again. If I find nothing seems to change in how the system sounds to me from that process then as far as I'm concerned the dac is not worth having. I'm deciding whether I enjoy listening to my music more than I was previously, it is entirely subjective and I'm not suggesting it will suit everyone, it suits me though. To do that does not require level matching and it can't be done blind.

Yet apparently Brian's method obscures differences while yours creates them. It doesn't seem very reliable.

Paul

Not sure what you're on about there, Paul. What exactly is being obscured and how?

Another anecdote here, as I know darryl likes them a lot...

When I owned a naim 32.5/160 I stumbled across a used snaps for £50 so I "snapped" it up (sorry...) just because it was cheap. I had no idea what difference it might make as I'd never before tried an external power supply on the preamp, but hey, even back then I'd been told by enough people a naim power supply was essential. Well as far as I was concerned on listening it was doing nothing much at all. Does the mere act of attaching that snaps to the system and listening to music somehow obscure something?

Some time later, when I removed the snaps there was a change in sound quality so I put the snaps back in. Because of this I decided to try out a Naim Hicap, assuming in advance it would be better but despite this expectation bias in favour of the hicap it turned out (imo) to be no better than the snaps, so I didn't bother with the hicap. Sighted of course.

 

[darrylfunk]

Not sure what you're on about there, Paul. What exactly is being obscured and how?

Another anecdote here, as I know darryl likes them a lot...

i'll leave someone else to point out what could be obscured....

strange you ask really.

what did you think of the vid brian?

i'd like you to relay your thoughts of the video's points as i do like your anecdotes.

 

[Brian]

please do it's very informative....it's someone just like you, very passionate about music relaying an anecdote about volume.

Darryl,

No, I generally don't go to links and I see reason to do so now. Sorry.
I don't believe you understand my position, mate, so I've no real interest in the clip because it probably isn't my position anyway.

If you want to level match and blind test that's great. Go ahead. I can see where there is a value in it despite you appearing to believe I don't. I've no problem with you doing that, I'm sure the method suits your purpose and enables you to get more enjoyment from the hobby, or however you regard it. The thing is, that method does not suit my interest in all of this so I use a different method that does. I'm not trying to prove or disprove that x and y sound the same or don't sound the same and I'm not trying to convince anyone else either, nor am I recommending anyone buy something based on any of my own experiences.

Feel free to tell me what could be obscured, darryl.

 

[darrylfunk]

vis a vis obscuring results, well it's obvious...it's from you learning anything from a more rigorous approach....up to you though mate.

what you are doing is of value to you because plainly that's your idealogical way of doing stuff so, it reinforces your experience....but imagine if none of the gear you had ever heard in your life never had the bottom octave of bass on it....so you had never heard it....your way of doing things would never inform you that you are missing anything....but like i said that's up to you and fine and valid for you....as you have so little interest in the volume video i guess you have already made up your mind.
not sure why you pop into threads you have no interest in or no interest in checking out links or no interest in reading what other posters have commented on though....but it's a free country.

enjoy your gear and music.

 

[merlin]

Darryl,
Feel free to tell me what could be obscured, darryl.

Genuine audio differences and quality would be obscured Brian, but as that's of no real importance to you then the need for level matching is irrelevant.

If you are happy with your purchase that is all that matters. And you don't seem to be the sort of guy who will go on a forum telling others that one product sounds better than another.

I get where you are coming from. You make buying decisions based on any number of external influences with the sole aim of making you happy. Good for you.

 

[Brian]

vis a vis obscuring results, well it's obvious...it's from you learning anything from a more rigorous approach....up to you though mate.

Still don't have a clue what you're on about, darryl. Why would I want a more rigorous approach when if that more rigorous approach is your approach it doesn't achieve anything for me?

what you are doing is of value to you because plainly that's your idealogical way of doing stuff so, it reinforces your experience....but imagine if none of the gear you had ever heard in your life never had the bottom octave of bass on it....so you had never heard it....your way of doing things would never inform you that you are missing anything....but like i said that's up to you and fine and valid for you....as you have so little interest in the volume video i guess you have already made up your mind.
not sure why you pop into threads you have no interest in or no interest in checking out links or no interest in reading what other posters have commented on though....but it's a free country.

enjoy your gear and music.

It's not that I have no interest in your volume video, it's that I don't click on ANY video linked from the forum. I already said that.

It's not for you to decide who can and who can't post in a thread. If you think I'm breaking the AUP just hit the report button and I'm sure Tony will consider your complaint and come to a decision.

 

[darrylfunk]

Still don't have a clue what you're on about, darryl. Why would I want a more rigorous approach when if that more rigorous approach is your approach it doesn't achieve anything for me?


It's not that I have no interest in your volume video, it's that I don't click on ANY video linked from the forum. I already said that.

It's not for you to decide who can and who can't post in a thread. If you think I'm breaking the AUP just hit the report button and I'm sure Tony will consider your complaint and come to a decision.

i haven't said you can't post....where did that come from...it's clear your not interested in our thoughts or links or our opinions....i was just pointing that out....just wondering why you bother post on a topic about volume level matching and it's huge importance.

seems you also have not understood any of the arguments either.

so much for you being well mannered....seems you are the same as a few of the other moody posters.

i thought different but not now....it's clear you just want a status quo.

like i said it's up to you...wilfully misunderstanding why volume is crucial in 'any' test is just trolling in my view.

i'm very happy that you have an opinion and a special way of listening....enjoy it.

 

[Brian]

Genuine audio differences and quality would be obscured Brian.

If you are happy with your purchase that is all that matters. And you don't seem to be the sort of guy who will go on a forum telling others that one product sounds better than another.

I get where you are coming from. You make buying decisions based on any number of external influences with the sole aim of making you happy. Good for you.

Not bad, though I removed the snipe you couldn't resist.

So I make decisions based on external influences? Can you enlighten me as to what those external influences are? I'm genuinely interested. It's certainly nothing to do with level matching or listening blind as you can't do that with long term listening. Everything I've tried is *supposed* to offer an improvement so it doesn't look like that is much of an external influence for me either. So what are these external influences that affect me during long term listening?

 

[Brian]

i haven't said you can't post....where did that come from...it's clear your not interested in our thoughts or links or our opinions....i was just pointing that out....just wondering why you bother post on a topic about volume level matching and it's huge importance.

seems you also have not understood any of the arguments either.

so much for you being well mannered....seems you are the same as a few of the other moody posters.

i thought different but not now....it's clear you just want a status quo.

like i said it's up to you...wilfully misunderstanding why volume is crucial in 'any' test is just trolling in my view.

i'm very happy that you have an opinion and a special way of listening....enjoy it.

Sorry, I took the not sure why you pop into threads you have no interest in" comment as telling me I shouldn't post.

Volume matching is important to you because you compare components side by side, I try not to compare components in that manner so level matching is not important to me.

There are a number of little digs in your post, darryl. It would be good if some of the objectivists could cut out the snipes. I'm not a troll, nor am I willfully misunderstanding anything.

 

[merlin]

Sorry Brian

Can't really indulge you. For me, it feels like talking to noisy children who keep simply staring into my face and asking "why? at the end of the sentence".

Not that I'm suggesting you childish you understand - just that these threads seem to resemble those types of exchanges and everyone eventually runs out of patience.

All the answers you seek are easily Googled.

 

[darrylfunk]

So I make decisions based on external influences? Can you enlighten me as to what those external influences are? I'm genuinely interested. It's certainly nothing to do with level matching or listening blind as you can't do that with long term listening. Everything I've tried is *supposed* to offer an improvement so it doesn't look like that is much of an external influence for me either. So what are these external influences that affect me during long term listening?

to be fair brian....it's pretty obvious now you're virtually trolling....we have been discussing 'perception' across a few threads now....you don't open links, you don't follow discussion in any detail and then you pop out your lovely anecdotes....but you always ignore or fail to understand why these things are important.

why do you think broadcast companies have standards....??? why do you think aes measure stuff very carefully???

why do harman have a massive and strict protocol for their many tests?

it's clear you actually don't want to know anything...just enjoy your gear...let the thread die....

 

[Robert]

Not bad, though I removed the snipe you couldn't resist.

So I make decisions based on external influences?

Can you enlighten me as to what those external influences are? I'm genuinely interested. It's certainly nothing to do with level matching or listening blind as you can't do that with long term listening. Everything I've tried is *supposed* to offer an improvement so it doesn't look like that is much of an external influence for me either. So what are these external influences that affect me during long term listening?

So I make decisions based on external influences?

Yes you do - everybody does which is why blind testing is accepted as the gold standard for testing in so many areas, other than audio which contains a large irrational element.

The biggest (proven) factor is the known inability of the aural memory to recall small differences of the type which exist between audio electronics.
Simply listening to a dac in your system for for a few days (or weeks or whatever) and then swapping for another model will guarantee only one thing - that your memory will fail to allow other than a flawed comparison. Longer the gap, worse it gets.
It's fine if you want to compare a Klipsh to a Tannoy where differences are gross, but not dacs.

You can choose not to believe any of this, and the fact that you won't follow forum links tells it's own story there I'm afraid. We've discussed these matters time and time again, yet still you ask the same questions.

My advice is that you do a little research and perhaps follow some of those informative links.

to be fair brian....it's pretty obvious now you're virtually trolling.....

That's an accusation I levelled at Brian over a year ago. I ended up giving him the benefit of the doubt at the time. Not so now.

 

[sergeauckland]

Serge,

It has happened from time to time but I try not to set out to judge whether 2 components are the same or different, I've no real interest in that kind of comparison because I think it's quite pointless.

If I'm interested in a dac (for example) I'll try to get one on loan and just add it to the system and listen to my music in the same manner I always do. At some point in time I'll take the dac out of the system and listen again. If I find nothing seems to change in how the system sounds to me from that process then as far as I'm concerned the dac is not worth having. I'm deciding whether I enjoy listening to my music more than I was previously, it is entirely subjective and I'm not suggesting it will suit everyone, it suits me though. To do that does not require level matching and it can't be done blind.

That's fine, but I hope you accept that you're not only comparing the sound quality of the two DACs, you're comparing the whole ownership experience, if you will. You're deciding which makes you happier, not which sounds better.

If you want to know which sounds better, regardless of any other consideration, then blind level matched testing is the only way I know of doing it.

S.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

That's fine, but I hope you accept that you're not only comparing the sound quality of the two DACs, you're comparing the whole ownership experience, if you will. You're deciding which makes you happier, not which sounds better.

If you want to know which sounds better, regardless of any other consideration, then blind level matched testing is the only way I know of doing it.

S.

But it doesn't work for you, Serge, as you have already stated that your negative bias precludes you from hearing differences & you just use listening to tyre-kick . I guess your advice to Brian is mute as you have zero experience of that which you suggest?

 

[darrylfunk]

But it doesn't work for you, Serge, as you have already stated that your negative bias precludes you from hearing differences & you just use listening to tyre-kick . I guess your advice to Brian is mute as you have zero experience of what you speak?

oh dear...

 

[sergeauckland]

But it doesn't work for you, Serge, as you have already stated that your negative bias precludes you from hearing differences & you just use listening to tyre-kick . I guess your advice to Brian is mute as you have zero experience of what you speak?

If I know there are differences between items, easily done from the measurements, it may not be obvious which one sounds better, especailly if both are flawed, but in different ways. Knowing that there is a difference, then there's no bias against AB listening, as a difference is expected.

If I want to establish which sound I prefer, regardless of any influence from brand, price, looks or anything other than sound, then how else can I do but blind?

If I want to establish which box I would rather own, which one would make me happier, that's a totally different arguement, but it may have little to do with sound quality differences. This is especially so with a DAC which, if there are differences at all, are subtle at best, nothing like as obvious as transducers.

S.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

If I know there are differences between items, easily done from the measurements, it may not be obvious which one sounds better, especailly if both are flawed, but in different ways. Knowing that there is a difference, then there's no bias against AB listening, as a difference is expected.

So why would you listen to known flawed devices? Your previous posts suggest that you wouldn't. You're contention is that most DACs (let's say) measure & therefore perform the same. Why bother with flawed evices?

If I want to establish which sound I prefer, regardless of any influence from brand, price, looks or anything other than sound, then how else can I do but blind?

But you don't have this want - you know already from your measurements which is transparent & which isn't. Why then the requirement for listening?

If I want to establish which box I would rather own, which one would make me happier, that's a totally different arguement, but it may have little to do with sound quality differences. This is especially so with a DAC which, if there are differences at all, are subtle at best, nothing like as obvious as transducers.

S.

But again you have already stated "As I said at the beginning, I decide what's good by measurements. If it measures well, I'm happy to use it. Listening, as part of measurements, I use only to confirm that the measurements were correct. A reality check, if you will. No more than that. It only becomes useful if, for some reason, the measurements were wrong. No different really to kicking the tyres after checking tyre pressures."

 

[sergeauckland]

So why would you listen to known flawed devices? Your previous posts suggest that you wouldn't. You're contention is that most DACs (let's say) measure & therefore perform the same. Why bother with flawed evices?

But you don't have this want - you know already from your measurements which is transparent & which isn't. Why then the requirement for listening?

But again you have already stated "As I said at the beginning, I decide what's good by measurements. If it measures well, I'm happy to use it. Listening, as part of measurements, I use only to confirm that the measurements were correct. A reality check, if you will. No more than that. It only becomes useful if, for some reason, the measurements were wrong. No different really to kicking the tyres after checking tyre pressures."

John,


This is a hypothetical discussion, of a hypothetical issue, with hypothetical solutions.

I personally wouldn't listen to two DACs as the ones that are inside my CD player or SBT are perfectly good enough for the purpose. However, if I was faced with making a choice between two DACs who's measurements indicated were both flawed but in different ways, and somebody held a gun to my head and asked me to choose which sounded better, then I would want to listen to them blind and level matched.

Enough nonsense now, I'm out of here.

S.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

John,


This is a hypothetical discussion, of a hypothetical issue, with hypothetical solutions.

I personally wouldn't listen to two DACs as the ones that are inside my CD player or SBT are perfectly good enough for the purpose. However, if I was faced with making a choice between two DACs who's measurements indicated were both flawed but in different ways, and somebody held a gun to my head and asked me to choose which sounded better, then I would want to listen to them blind and level matched.

Enough nonsense now, I'm out of here.

S.

But Brian is giving real examples with real results, yet you are giving him hypotheticals? I suspect Brian might be less interested in the hypotheticals & more interested in the real world practical side of things.

Why not just tell him to measure as you do? He may well have biases which rule him out of performing blind testing also. As per your advice to him "If you want to know which sounds better, regardless of any other consideration, then blind level matched testing is the only way I know of doing it." But you don't know as you haven't experienced it, by your own admission!!

 

[merlin]

Can someone lift the tonearm?