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Balanced vs Single Ended

As with many things, try it and see

I was surprised how big a difference (improvement) there was simply changing from 0.5m single ended to 0.5m balanced leads between my MDAC and my Meridian G02. Both fully balanced designs, with balanced connections through to balanced power amps.

I wouldn't go back
 
All bits of kit I've measured gives better technical performance using balanced connections. Lower noise floor, less mains hum (ground noise) and lower distortion.
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Many units "cheat" as it were, by using a balanced audio receiver IC such as the SSM2143 , or a similar arrangement made from op-amps. Hence when using the balanced input option you are feeding the signal through more circuitry than when using the unbalanced inputs!
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Why is that cheating? The only other way is with transformers, isn't it? If it works better then who cares how many parts it goes though. CMRR will be significantly better.
 
Tenson said:
Why is that cheating? The only other way is with transformers, isn't it? If it works better then who cares how many parts it goes though. CMRR will be significantly better.
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Because it's not using a circuit which is inherently balanced by it's design topology but passing the signal through further circuitry to balance or unbalance it...

CMRR will be better than what? Unbalanced has no CMRR....

Just another fad as far as domestic hifi goes... Generally... and in a domestic setting... unbalanced should be better due to shorter signal path.
 
Tenson said:
All bits of kit I've measured gives better technical performance using balanced connections. Lower noise floor, less mains hum (ground noise) and lower distortion.
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You mention that balanced connections measure better - in your experience does the sound heard change for better or worse, or is a different presentation altogether than presented by single-ended?
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Because it's not using a circuit which is inherently balanced by it's design topology but passing the signal through further circuitry to balance or unbalance it...

CMRR will be better than what? Unbalanced has no CMRR....

Just another fad as far as domestic hifi goes... Generally... and in a domestic setting... unbalanced should be better due to shorter signal path.
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I can barely think of any kit that has balanced circuit design all the way through so I don't think you can call the normal way of doing things cheating, it is just normal.

Yes single ended has no CMRR so you get higher noise, especially ground issues. If what you want is ultimate technical performance then it is better to use balanced. The differences between single ended and balanced are often as big as the differences between reasonable DACs. Then again I find most DACs sound the same ;)
 
Tenson said:
I can barely think of any kit that has balanced circuit design all the way through so I don't think you can call the normal way of doing things cheating, it is just normal.

Yes single ended has no CMRR so you get higher noise, especially ground issues. If what you want is ultimate technical performance then it is better to use balanced. The differences between single ended and balanced are often as big as the differences between reasonable DACs. Then again I find most DACs sound the same ;)
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Precisely! Which is why it's generally a waste of time in domestic hi fi and virtually always means passing the signal through several more op amps or (ugh!) a transformer!

Yes, it guarantees no ground issues between items of equipment... but in a domestic setting, and with well designed equipment, that just isn't an issue....

IMHO..... it's been used as a "new and improved" "feature" to encourage sales of balanced gear as an upgrade to those previously using unbalanced.... erroneously in my view

I'm sure there are plenty who will want to say that his Acme MKIIV sounds better to him balanced but the above are the facts of the matter...
 
Haha, I like transformers! A very neat alternative to using complex circuits, and can have very low distortion too. A shame they cost a bomb.
 
Tenson said:
Haha, I like transformers! A very neat alternative to using complex circuits, and can have very low distortion too. A shame they cost a bomb.
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Some do..... As you say, good ones cost a fortune..... and they always have issues at frequency extremes... especially as price reduces to sane levels! Apart from frequency response anomalies there is the phase shift (of course related) and transient problems such as ringing....

In some pro audio applications such as microphone pre-amps, certain brands of transformer are highly sought after because they add a certain colouration
to vocals that is considered part of the artistic process. Personally, I wouldn't want any colouration adding in the replay chain! You will never find a transformer (other than in the power supply) in anything I design!
YMMV :)
 
hammeredklavier said:
I've also got -20 dB XLR attenuators on the way, which will DEFINITELY do the trick! :D
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This will effectively turn your Behringer into a 10W amp (might be all you need though).

Maybe stating the obvious, but you can work backwards to try and source the noise, beginning with just the amp plugged in to the speakers. The Behringer specs list a very normal voltage gain on max. so this shouldn't be to blame.
 
Tenson said:
All bits of kit I've measured gives better technical performance using balanced connections. Lower noise floor, less mains hum (ground noise) and lower distortion.
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This is definitely not my experience when measuring gear. Hair's breadth and toss a coin, usually.

I have seen some of your measurements posted about, there does seem to be a mysterious ever-present ground noise which shouldn't be there for any decent kit and connection.
 
I tend to use my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra for measurements since I have quite a few dating back and I want to keep them comparable. I think the ground noise comes from the PC, as does a bit of ultra-sonic stuff.

In a way though I think it is helpful, since it shows which kit is good at rejecting such noise which is often present in 'the real world'.
 
It seems to me that the only benefit which balanced connections and cables offer is CMRR (Common mode rejection ratio).

This simply means that differential inputs are required, and any signals which are present on both inputs simultaneously are rejected. These usually are noise or hum induced by external electrical or magnetic fields.

Whilst differential inputs are simply and cheaply available by appropriate configuration of the ubiquitous op-amp, they have no benefit in the absence of nuisance signals.

Usually, domestic interconnects are short (say 5m or less), well screened, and don't suffer.

Long cables are often used professionally in noisy environments, and so CMRR might be very helpful.

There is no difference in sound quality between balanced and single ended systems provided each is correctly employed.

JC
 
Pandapple said:
This will effectively turn your Behringer into a 10W amp (might be all you need though).
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It'll be more than 10W I would think, but after a bit of experimentation I discovered that taking 20 dB out of the signal still drives the power amp louder than I'd ever want to go. At 15 dB of attenuation it's F*CKING loud with most recordings at 10 dB, we're getting into clipping territory, speaker overload, and permanent hearing damage.
 
Mr Postie's just been. 1m RCA swapped for 1m XLR. Noise and hum massively reduced! I've only just had a quick listen but I don't think there's any difference in overall sound quality.

Suppose the XLR attenuators will still mean I can use less digital attenuation... although, of course, the DacMagic's magic attenuator doesn't reduce bit-depth of course! ;)

Anyway, it would seem that XLR is a winner even for domestic environments and short runs. Although I'm using a rather mental power amp I suppose.
 
hammeredklavier said:
1m RCA swapped for 1m XLR. Noise and hum massively reduced! I've only just had a quick listen but I don't think there's any difference in overall sound quality.
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If you have a massive reduction in noise and hum, simply by inserting a 1 metre XLR cable, that would suggest to me that you have a still un-resolved defect, or fault, on your system, which is now merely disguised.

JC


p.s. unless of course it was the previous RCA cable which was defective, in which case replacing it with any type of good one would have been effective.
 
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