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Bit Perfect Transport

gaunaik

pfm Member
Sqeezebox Touch isa bit perfect transport, fed asynchronous into a Dac makes it a perfect transport?

How many other bit perfect transports are there? Surely they all sound identical, but do they?

A bit perfect rip, is obviously important, besides using ELAC, are there any alternatives?

Are iTunes rips from CD to apple lossless bit perfect?

I woud welcome your thoughts.

GN
 
Sqeezebox Touch isa bit perfect transport, fed asynchronous into a Dac makes it a perfect transport?

How many other bit perfect transports are there? Surely they all sound identical, but do they?

A bit perfect rip, is obviously important, besides using ELAC, are there any alternatives?

Are iTunes rips from CD to apple lossless bit perfect?

I woud welcome your thoughts.

GN

I don't believe that this exists hence why good rippers employ some form of accurate rip that compares your rip to what others got from the same CD with a level of confidence. There is even a database of different CD drives on the web rating them for their ability to provide a good rip.

I rate dbpoweramp and you can get a free rialf the full product. Others will recommend differently but I've tried a few and dbp wasfor me the best to use.

Cheers,

DV
 
an MD5 checksum will easily show whether or not the file is identical.

as will a null test. "bit perfect" is trivial to achieve, and there is no shortage of devices that are. the SBT is certainly great, it is "bit perfect"

id personally avoid Itunes and go with Foobar(WASAPI) , Media Monkey, Jriver, Audivarna. given that FLAC is the widely distributed, most widely used, I would encode to that...(although it is easy to transcode to whatever you wish)



..
 
DV,

Once the audio has been ripped to HD, this image will be replayed perfectly by a SB or for that matter, any cheap/crap SPDIF interface from your average PC. Whether the image that you are replaying is actually bit for bit what was on the CD is a different matter.

I would expect there will be read errors which will be corrected from the CD when ripping. I would expect therefore that multiple lossless rips of the same audio CD will produce slightly different results. I'd expect you be to unable to hear the difference though.
 
Teddy,we are talking Audio-CD not CD-ROM. Goggle for BLER and then jitter and you'll see what I mean. Here is a link to an interesting article 'CD: Jitter, Errors & Magic'.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/590jitter

Cheers,

DV

Darth,

The Stereophile article is 22 years old. It was originally published in 1990. Things have changed, jitter is a non-issue in audio today. We truly are old farts hanging on to the remnants of a hobby. Maybe that's why I like old gear.

Louballoo
 
DV,

I would expect therefore that multiple lossless rips of the same audio CD will produce slightly different results.

That's not the case ime. It is simple to use dBpoweramp to compute the CRC2 checksums of some rips, or to use dBPoweramp or foobar to compare the audio bit for bit. When I have done so the results are identical. Indeed dBpoweramp and EAC write checksums of rips to a central Accuraterip database, from which it can be seen that hundreds of different drives all over the planet produce exactly, precisely the same rips.

Accurate ripping is a done deal.
 
That's not the case ime. It is simple to use dBpoweramp to compute the CRC2 checksums of some rips, or to use dBPoweramp or foobar to compare the audio bit for bit. When I have done so the results are identical. Indeed dBpoweramp and EAC write checksums of rips to a central Accuraterip database, from which it can be seen that hundreds of different drives all over the planet produce exactly, precisely the same rips.

Accurate ripping is a done deal.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't possible to get an accurate rip, rather, it wouldn't be surprising if there were differences. I was also suggesting that even if there are differences, you won't be able to tell...
 
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't possible to get an accurate rip, rather, it wouldn't be surprising if there were differences. I was also suggesting that even if there are differences, you won't be able to tell...

My point was that it would be surprising to get differences. Very surprising. Why on earth would you expect differences? Why on earth would you rip in such a way that there was any chance of differences? There is no reason whatsoever to expect differences. There are some subtle issues like drive offset which can cause a difference of a tiny amount of silence at the beginning of a rip, and hidden tracks which can escape crap rippers, but if you use a decent ripperlike dBpoweramp or EAC rips will be 100% accurate and verified. Time after time on machine after machine. If there are errors in the rip due to faults on the cd you get told. Ripping is a done deal.
 
a squeezebox is a ''perfect transport'' ?

I wish that it was - I would have saved thousands.

A rip from a CD might be identical to the original, but that's not the same thing as getting information to the dac perfectly.
 
Using an Audiolab MDAC, it is possible to check that a Squeezebox Touch is bit perfect. I.e. it is able to stream an audio file at 44.1 or 96 kHz without changing one bit.

Now there remains some possible issues (lack of galvanic isolation, jitter) which also have some fixes (or ways to render their effect negligeable): Toslink cables/isolators, and dejittering circuitry/asynchronous mode.

With this in mind, I'm not sure it makes sense to spend more than what a 'blemished box' SBT costs for music playback up to 192 kHz (which the SBT handles... possibly in a bit perfect way although this hasn't been established yet).
 
Bit integrity isn't the problem - it's a pretty trivial requirement for any transport (streamer, computer, or whatever) to deliver the same data in the file to the DAC. However, there's a world of difference between transports: just as it was in the CD era - but more so!

Remember how power supplies and shielding and clocks were eventually recognised as major contributors to the performance of the source? Nothing has changed - even though we have the Ubiquitous Serial Bus . . .

The junk we attach to our audio systems (in particular low-grade cheap switching PSUs) cannot help but change the local playback environment - sometimes drastically.

You might be surprised that even this month, a respected manufacturer - PS Audio - 'fessed up to learning something new about digital audio. The only people who tell you this stuff is straightforward are those who don't get their hands dirty making it.
http://www.psaudio.com/blog/newsletters/8172/april-2012-ps-audio-newsletter/

From the software perspective, transports all look the same on cursory inspection. From the hardware perspective, transports look very different. From the DAC's perspective, it all matters.
 
Bit integrity isn't the problem - it's a pretty trivial requirement for any transport (streamer, computer, or whatever) to deliver the same data in the file to the DAC. However, there's a world of difference between transports: just as it was in the CD era - but more so!

Remember how power supplies and shielding and clocks were eventually recognised as major contributors to the performance of the source? Nothing has changed - even though we have the Ubiquitous Serial Bus . . .

The junk we attach to our audio systems (in particular low-grade cheap switching PSUs) cannot help but change the local playback environment - sometimes drastically.

You might be surprised that even this month, a respected manufacturer - PS Audio - 'fessed up to learning something new about digital audio. The only people who tell you this stuff is straightforward are those who don't get their hands dirty making it.
http://www.psaudio.com/blog/newsletters/8172/april-2012-ps-audio-newsletter/

From the software perspective, transports all look the same on cursory inspection. From the hardware perspective, transports look very different. From the DAC's perspective, it all matters.

Item, a less caring and sensitive individual than myself might suggest that since you make a living by selling products on the periphery of this hobby that your advise may be compromised.

Your Pal

Louballoo
 
Item, a less caring and sensitive individual than myself might suggest that since you make a living by selling products on the periphery of this hobby that your advise may be compromised.

Your Pal

Louballoo

er ya... but at least he isn't doing it on the Squeezebox (his direct competitor) threads, his usual MO. :p

He did that on the Slim Devices forum, of all places. pure entertainment.
 
From the hardware perspective, transports look very different. From the DAC's perspective, it all matters.

No. No. No.

but dont take my word for it. Take Paul Frindle(DSP Expert, digital audio mastermind, one of the powers behind the Sony Oxford Console, among other things)

**POSTED WITH MR FRINDLES PERMISSION*

Paul is a digital audio expert and DSP mastermind. I often ask him for advice/information.

His Bio is here. http://www.proaudiodsp.com/

Paul Frindle - Product Design

Paul Frindle has 35 years' experience in the pro audio and music industries. He has worked as a studio engineer in Oxford and Paris, and was a design engineer at SSL with responsibilities for E and G-series analogue consoles, emerging assignable consoles and nascent digital audio products. As one of the original team that became Sony Oxford, he is responsible for many revolutionary aspects of the Sony OXF-R3 mixing console. More recently he was responsible for product design and quality assurance at Oxford Plugins. On leaving Sony Oxford, he co-founded Pro Audio DSP in order to make novel sound-processing applications to fulfill many issues he had identified in the audio production chain over his career.





___There are only 2 things a DAC responds to; 1) the data we feed to it ,
2) the timing information it gets.____

For the data; data is data - there is no possibility that identical
data sets could ever produce a different sound, regardless of their
origins. In short, numbers are numbers - and if they are the same,
they are the same - period.

For timing it's a slightly different matter, because it is essentially
and analogue signal - it's properties (i.e. rate) are analogue in
concept.

So there is a slight possibility that interference on the clock signal
can affect the DACs performance, if the timing is modulated in some
way, by slightly changing the rate of plyout with time.

Of course a good DAC system will circumvent this possibility by using
it's own internal clock and some buffering of the data - so that the
DAC's timing follows the filtered average rate of the input timing -
such that short term timing rate variations (due to interference) do
not make it through. I.e. it will synchronise to the input clock,
rather than simply passing the input clock straight into the DAC.. You
can almost think of it as stacking up the data as it ccomes in and
playing it out using it's OWN high quality clock set to the same rate.

However - as you can imagine, price competition tends to rule out
anything that might increase the cost of the product - and so you will
have to spend extra money on your DAC system to get this..

So where does the timing modulation of the clock rate come from
(sometimes called jitter)?

First on the list are wires and connections. Line frequency hum, RF
and interference getting into clock cables will modulate the timing at
the recieving end. If you DAC doesn't reject them (as above)
performance may suffer.

Next on the list is bad design. For instance, in consumer players
where the DAC is within the player box, power supply modulation from
bad design may cause internal circuits to interfere with each other.
For instance if the motor servo is being varied by slightly eccentric
discs and/or wobbly ones that stress the focus servo, the cyclic
changes to current draw my affect the clock oscillator if the power
supply is badly desogned etc.. So although the data is correctly read,
the DAC itself may perform less well than it might, due to internal
design flaws.. And of course this is true of any electronic system...

So there you go - it's a simple as that - no PHD required :)

In summary:

Data itself coming from different systems cannot cause a change in
sound - if the data values are both identical.

But hardware may perform slightly differently if the timing integrity
is compromised.

Having an external DAC does not avoid the issue - unless it's a very
good one with internal timing re-clocking. In which case it will be
effectively immune from timing errors and will sound the same whatever
way it gets connected, providing the data is correct.

So instead of worrying about data coming from Macs or PCs and/or a
whole load of hot air from HiFi zealots filling pages with 'waffle' -
**get yourself a high quality DAC and say bye-bye to the whole
discussion** :)

I hope this helps..

Paul
 
My point was that it would be surprising to get differences. Very surprising. Why on earth would you expect differences? Why on earth would you rip in such a way that there was any chance of differences? There is no reason whatsoever to expect differences.

My expectation was based on an understanding of Reed-Solomon encoding, and how Sony implemented it in CIRC used on audio CDs. No matter how CD players advance, the encoding is the same, and the amount of dust and fingerprints on my disks are likely to increase as well ;-)

If you have made multiple rips of modern CDs and found that you always get bit perfect copies, I suggest that implies more about the cleanliness of your disks - if you've seen the state of my CD collection, maybe you'd understand my interest in error correction ;-)
 
Check out the Accuraterip database. DBPoweramp users and EAC users (to name but two) write the checksums of their rips to a central database. If hundreds and in some cases thousands of users all over the world with all sorts of disc drives and CDs in all sorts of conditions get exactly the same result for a given track/cd you can hardly claim that successive rips are likely to be different. As far as your own dirty CDs are concerned, have you actually tried dBpoweramp? Does it in fact report that they are unrippable without errors? It can do an amazing job with quite badly damaged CDs, though it might take a few more minutes than usual, and is usually utterly unphased by dust and fingerprints. It might be that the guy that wrote dBpoweramp has a better understanding of Reed-Solomon encoding and Sonys implementation of it that you do! ;) Repeatably accurate ripping is a done deal.
 
I've been ripping away with dBPoweramp for the last few days - done about 100 CDs so far and only one so far did not rip 100% accurate first time.
 
So instead of worrying about data coming from Macs or PCs and/or a whole load of hot air from HiFi zealots filling pages with 'waffle' - **get yourself a high quality DAC and say bye-bye to the whole discussion** :)

Interesting...

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think Teddy Ray uses a
$300 Logitech Squeezebox Touch
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/squeezebox-touch
into a
$3,000 Forssell Technologies MDAC-2
http://www.forsselltech.com/products/5/#!/products/5

and I know my local dealer uses a
£279 Sonos Connect
http://www.sonos.com/shop/products/connect?lang=en-us&region=uk
into the DAC in his
£4,500 Moon Evolution Series SuperNova RS CD Player
http://www.simaudio.com/moonsupernova.htm

Question is, if that's what guys in the trade think and do, what are the rest of us really up to? :)
 
No. No. No.

but dont take my word for it. Take Paul Frindle(DSP Expert, digital audio mastermind, one of the powers behind the Sony Oxford Console, among other things)

**POSTED WITH MR FRINDLES PERMISSION*

Paul is a digital audio expert and DSP mastermind. I often ask him for advice/information.

His Bio is here. http://www.proaudiodsp.com/

Paul Frindle - Product Design

Paul Frindle has 35 years' experience in the pro audio and music industries. He has worked as a studio engineer in Oxford and Paris, and was a design engineer at SSL with responsibilities for E and G-series analogue consoles, emerging assignable consoles and nascent digital audio products. As one of the original team that became Sony Oxford, he is responsible for many revolutionary aspects of the Sony OXF-R3 mixing console. More recently he was responsible for product design and quality assurance at Oxford Plugins. On leaving Sony Oxford, he co-founded Pro Audio DSP in order to make novel sound-processing applications to fulfill many issues he had identified in the audio production chain over his career.





___There are only 2 things a DAC responds to; 1) the data we feed to it ,
2) the timing information it gets.____

For the data; data is data - there is no possibility that identical
data sets could ever produce a different sound, regardless of their
origins. In short, numbers are numbers - and if they are the same,
they are the same - period.

For timing it's a slightly different matter, because it is essentially
and analogue signal - it's properties (i.e. rate) are analogue in
concept.

So there is a slight possibility that interference on the clock signal
can affect the DACs performance, if the timing is modulated in some
way, by slightly changing the rate of plyout with time.

Of course a good DAC system will circumvent this possibility by using
it's own internal clock and some buffering of the data - so that the
DAC's timing follows the filtered average rate of the input timing -
such that short term timing rate variations (due to interference) do
not make it through. I.e. it will synchronise to the input clock,
rather than simply passing the input clock straight into the DAC.. You
can almost think of it as stacking up the data as it ccomes in and
playing it out using it's OWN high quality clock set to the same rate.

However - as you can imagine, price competition tends to rule out
anything that might increase the cost of the product - and so you will
have to spend extra money on your DAC system to get this..

So where does the timing modulation of the clock rate come from
(sometimes called jitter)?

First on the list are wires and connections. Line frequency hum, RF
and interference getting into clock cables will modulate the timing at
the recieving end. If you DAC doesn't reject them (as above)
performance may suffer.

Next on the list is bad design. For instance, in consumer players
where the DAC is within the player box, power supply modulation from
bad design may cause internal circuits to interfere with each other.
For instance if the motor servo is being varied by slightly eccentric
discs and/or wobbly ones that stress the focus servo, the cyclic
changes to current draw my affect the clock oscillator if the power
supply is badly desogned etc.. So although the data is correctly read,
the DAC itself may perform less well than it might, due to internal
design flaws.. And of course this is true of any electronic system...

So there you go - it's a simple as that - no PHD required :)

In summary:

Data itself coming from different systems cannot cause a change in
sound - if the data values are both identical.

But hardware may perform slightly differently if the timing integrity
is compromised.

Having an external DAC does not avoid the issue - unless it's a very
good one with internal timing re-clocking. In which case it will be
effectively immune from timing errors and will sound the same whatever
way it gets connected, providing the data is correct.

So instead of worrying about data coming from Macs or PCs and/or a
whole load of hot air from HiFi zealots filling pages with 'waffle' -
**get yourself a high quality DAC and say bye-bye to the whole
discussion** :)

I hope this helps..

Paul

Great explanation! I know that the Rega DAC has a buffer in it.
 


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