Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Because smoke will come out of the output transformer.
On the other hand, you can short the output of a tube amp but you'd better not try it with a transistor one.
Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences
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Because smoke will come out of the output transformer.
On the other hand, you can short the output of a tube amp but you'd better not try it with a transistor one.
dave
Plywood King
Sad but true...my good fortune is I don't find much new mainstream music that i care for and there's tons of old stuff that'll keep me busy for the remaining decades I'll be around so sound quality isn't much of an issue for me.
It's a shame though those who care about producing good sound don't seem to get much of a break with the best artists. I'd love to see Ken Christianson get a call to capture an up and coming Beck instead of another beach bar kareoke winner or american idol wannabe.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
A bit of mild compression might conceivably help in those situations, but nothing like the smashed, clipped, brick-wall limiting being employed today. Those recordings don't sound "good" under any condition. I have to wonder if you've ever even been exposed to a brick-walled recording?
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
This trend has nothing to do with iPods, they didn't exist in the mid-1990s when the Loudness Wars gained prominence.
Teddy Ray
pfm Member
A bit of mild compression might conceivably help in those situations, but nothing like the smashed, clipped, brick-wall limiting being employed today. Those recordings don't sound "good" under any condition. I have to wonder if you've ever even been exposed to a brick-walled recording?
Ive been exposed to hundreds if not thousands. You don't seem to grasp that the type of music that this treatment is applied to... is TO MAKE MONEY.
if it is loud, it pops out and is competitive. you show some label head a recording that has "big dynamic range" as a selling point and youll be laughed out of the door. it isn't important.
I don't listen to mainstream music, everything I listen to is new, and I really fail to see just what the problem is. there is so much "underground" music out there that bitching and moaning about "the loudness war" is like standing outside of fort knox, with full access, and complaining about how small your gold chain is. so weird, man.
So Teddy Ray,
What exactly are you saying:
1. You don't care if the dynamic range on music is smashed or
2. You only buy music where the dynamic range is maintained (and this happens to be 'underground music") or
3. The music you just happen to buy just happens to have its dynamic range maintained.
If 2 or 3 are the case then you do care about "the loudness wars". All the bitching and moaning has had an effect.
I also buy mainly "underground" or "non mainstream" music but the quality of mastering is not universally great. Some are good some are not.
My first priority is to buy music I like. It certainly does help though if the mastering is good.
Raising the awareness of what good mastering is can only be a good thing.
What exactly are you saying:
1. You don't care if the dynamic range on music is smashed or
2. You only buy music where the dynamic range is maintained (and this happens to be 'underground music") or
3. The music you just happen to buy just happens to have its dynamic range maintained.
If 2 or 3 are the case then you do care about "the loudness wars". All the bitching and moaning has had an effect.
I also buy mainly "underground" or "non mainstream" music but the quality of mastering is not universally great. Some are good some are not.
My first priority is to buy music I like. It certainly does help though if the mastering is good.
Raising the awareness of what good mastering is can only be a good thing.
Teddy Ray
pfm Member
I don't care about the loudness wars or sound quality first.
I care first and foremost about the musical content.
it just so happens that the majority of underground stuff is not actively involved in the loudness sturm und drang.
Mastering engineers KNOW what "audiophile" dynamic range is. more than anyone.
but they work to put food on the table, and will do what their clients want.
targeting the mastering engineers or record labels makes no difference.
you have to reach the consumers if you want to change something. the flow of money...
I care first and foremost about the musical content.
it just so happens that the majority of underground stuff is not actively involved in the loudness sturm und drang.
Mastering engineers KNOW what "audiophile" dynamic range is. more than anyone.
but they work to put food on the table, and will do what their clients want.
targeting the mastering engineers or record labels makes no difference.
you have to reach the consumers if you want to change something. the flow of money...
darrylfunk
Banned
teddy is pretty much bang on the money.
also i buy loads of new music and hardly ever get these 'brickwall' limited cd's that everyone claims to be so prevalent.
i guess if you are buying rock that wants to be 'one' louder in the spinal tap way then that's what you will get....the floyd stuff has been getting louder and louder (and more annoying and ubiquitous) over the last 15 years.
modern dance pop relies on beefed up extremes lots of fizzing hi hats, loud band limited vocals and controlled bursts of sub bass dropping throughout the track and most of that stuff is highly limited and compressed to hold together as tight track....sidechain compression being very common.
sidechaining means the kick drum or main drum beats hits squash the rest or at least some of the music to get an energetic pumping effect that sounds similar to the old 'slightly out of tune radio' sound, daft punk made a whole career on this sound as they sought to emulate the sound effect of the radio had on the sound of old disco records they heard....
yes even some modern pop americana like the 'civil wars' is highly compressed but it is exciting sounding......if you are in doubt read up about recording , mixing , mastering and the theories of psychoacoustics.....mastering engineers should have studied these things although there are some labels using cheaper in house people to complete this work.
i did point out many , many months ago that some mastering people who have moved onto digital are not using their metering properly or they may have a less than complete understanding of the digital buss and it's inherent volume boost in daws.
also if you use the search facility on this forum and use terms like brickwall limiting and loudness wars etc you do not return many posts from people who understand this problem.....certainly hardly any posts before a couple of years ago.....so this bleating that it has been going on for decades is over egging it......
i think the two most discussed remasters where floyd or led zep stuff or possibly the rvg jazz reissues......hardly stuff not popular with hi fi buffs.....the beatles project was only a recent thing really.
i have put plenty of posts up on here over the years from links to mastering and loudness and they always end up being very poorly received probably due to the technical nature and the fact that there is no gear pron on show.....it's not my fault audiophiles have only just grasped some of the problems....but they still just whinge rather than find out why.....at least tony L actually goes out looking for the best pressing he can find for vinyl.....educate yourselves!!!!
also i buy loads of new music and hardly ever get these 'brickwall' limited cd's that everyone claims to be so prevalent.
i guess if you are buying rock that wants to be 'one' louder in the spinal tap way then that's what you will get....the floyd stuff has been getting louder and louder (and more annoying and ubiquitous) over the last 15 years.
modern dance pop relies on beefed up extremes lots of fizzing hi hats, loud band limited vocals and controlled bursts of sub bass dropping throughout the track and most of that stuff is highly limited and compressed to hold together as tight track....sidechain compression being very common.
sidechaining means the kick drum or main drum beats hits squash the rest or at least some of the music to get an energetic pumping effect that sounds similar to the old 'slightly out of tune radio' sound, daft punk made a whole career on this sound as they sought to emulate the sound effect of the radio had on the sound of old disco records they heard....
yes even some modern pop americana like the 'civil wars' is highly compressed but it is exciting sounding......if you are in doubt read up about recording , mixing , mastering and the theories of psychoacoustics.....mastering engineers should have studied these things although there are some labels using cheaper in house people to complete this work.
i did point out many , many months ago that some mastering people who have moved onto digital are not using their metering properly or they may have a less than complete understanding of the digital buss and it's inherent volume boost in daws.
also if you use the search facility on this forum and use terms like brickwall limiting and loudness wars etc you do not return many posts from people who understand this problem.....certainly hardly any posts before a couple of years ago.....so this bleating that it has been going on for decades is over egging it......
i think the two most discussed remasters where floyd or led zep stuff or possibly the rvg jazz reissues......hardly stuff not popular with hi fi buffs.....the beatles project was only a recent thing really.
i have put plenty of posts up on here over the years from links to mastering and loudness and they always end up being very poorly received probably due to the technical nature and the fact that there is no gear pron on show.....it's not my fault audiophiles have only just grasped some of the problems....but they still just whinge rather than find out why.....at least tony L actually goes out looking for the best pressing he can find for vinyl.....educate yourselves!!!!
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
I did suggest a while back in this thread that I might take along a Creek 4040 and a 552/300 to compare. I didn't even demand a 500 - I want to make things difficult. No offers of a loan yet though.
I'm still stuck about this exact volume matching thing. All I know how to do is turn a volume knob. Harbeth phone lines will be opening soon so if any one can come up with a scheme for me quick that would be great. If I win the Harbeths you'll get a special present, and I'll throw a Monitor 40 party.
darrylfunk,
The loudness wars or brickwalling of music is something I've had an interest in for last decade and am a member of a number of music sites where amongst other things this issue is discussed. Like Tony L, I also chase down the best vinyl pressings and CD masters (if I don't already have them), but only for the music I like.
But, as you are one of the pre-eminent "audiophiles" on this site and believe (as does Teddy Ray) that even discussing this issue is a waste of time, I will say no more.
The loudness wars or brickwalling of music is something I've had an interest in for last decade and am a member of a number of music sites where amongst other things this issue is discussed. Like Tony L, I also chase down the best vinyl pressings and CD masters (if I don't already have them), but only for the music I like.
But, as you are one of the pre-eminent "audiophiles" on this site and believe (as does Teddy Ray) that even discussing this issue is a waste of time, I will say no more.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
The funny thing about this thread is that we have spent 30 pages arguing about all the usual blah but I don't think anyone has come up with a helpful suggestion of how to implement a plan yet.
Alan Shaw says to call him when we have a plan implemented. I am itching to take his test but it seems that I'm not going to be taken seriously if I suggest taking the speaker cables out of one amp and putting them into the other.
Alan Shaw says to call him when we have a plan implemented. I am itching to take his test but it seems that I'm not going to be taken seriously if I suggest taking the speaker cables out of one amp and putting them into the other.
Dinovector
pfm Member
Couldn't you just use one of those speaker switching units connected up backwards?
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
I don't know; can I? Will a switch box not affect the sound? Sorry I'm new to all this.
genuine question...
how does volume matching effect dynamic range?
how do you match volume levels of two amps and maintain the full potential dynamic range of a piece of music or amps capabilities?
bottleneck
pfm Member
Indeed, as am I (see signature).
Frankly, the dynamic range of recorded music is the mountain, and the discussion of this particular thread is the molehill. I am glad the thread has ''de-railled'' because it's now talking about something of actual merit.
If Tony wanted to make a ''sticky'' in which we discussed the various releases of the same album, and which version had the greatest dynamic range - this would be a useful pot into which people could dip. .
For example, if you wanted to buy a copy of Curtis Mayfield's 'Superfly' on CD - wouldn't you like to know whether the 1983 mastering was significantly better than the 1991 mastered copy?
I damn would.
That's the kind of information you used to get in the Penguin Jazz guides about Vinyl, but we need a resource for it for CD. Someone please take my idea and run with it. I am not copyrighting it!
darrylfunk
Banned
why don't you watch the videos i posted up for a start....i thought you knew all these very basic theories.....
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi Spxy, volume and dynamic range - probably the best description of how to understand their inter-relation is the video in my signature.
By the way, I have no relation to the website in my signature, I just promote it out of belief.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Yes, they are all very interesting questions.
But why don't we re-rail this thread and get back to the Harbeth test.
I guess its a competition though, so its a lot to expect for people to share knowledge.
But why don't we re-rail this thread and get back to the Harbeth test.
I guess its a competition though, so its a lot to expect for people to share knowledge.
Dinovector
pfm Member
Me too, I imagine it will but the same for both? Then there's the problem of the unloaded amp because the switch would have the amp loaded all the time in normal use. Not a lot of help, sorry but I do agree with you that this is the issue not compression or whether or not studio's have red or black speakers.
darrylfunk
Banned
i have not said anything of the sort....and you know that.
why do you think i have posted so many technical pieces here and videos from aes talks and various audio engineering discussions here over the last 5 years.....?
i am not an audiophile either i am a musician and recording engineer who works predominantly in the electronic music scene and have trained in mastering and audio restoration after i left the rather miserable hi fi industry.
i also help train budding d.a.w. programmers in midi and basic engineering with steinberg cubase sometimes.
i certainly don't claim to have better hearing than anyone else but i very possibly know what i am hearing better than most hi fi buffs as my job is to recreate existing sounds or sculpt new ones.
if you want to discuss loudness start a thread and i will participate.
no need for you to try and belittle my contributions thank you.
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