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Digital Strategy - What's the best way to go for sound quality

Jitter isn't audible unless it's massively greater than possible with any competently executed modern DAC.

The differences between DACs has narrowed to a point that in the finished product, they are virtually impossible to tell apart.

The Benchmark is a good DAC, it's as good as it's parts, so amongst the best made, which is what the measurements prove, but so are the DACs is modern AV processors.

We've had a £1300 Rotel AV pre recently, we have a Denon AVR 1700 professional AV pre and a Yamaha RXV667, all are virtually indistinguishable from a Benchmark and probably a Transit, so if you're hearing differences, I suspect there's something amiss in your system.

AV processors are at the cutting edge of amplification, DSP and DACery now as Yamaha as state of the art as anyone in Broadcast, music production and AV and one of the largest VLSI producers, so all proper stuff from proper companies.

Ash.

PS. if you Google, you'll find tests you can take to see if you can hear jitter.
 
Not deaf Patrick, but with much broader experience than many audiophiles. We have to keep up with it all because it's where the business is now.

I think you'd be very surprised if you heard the pre's, DACs and Amps in mid and up market processors now.

Ash
 
AVI said:
We have to keep up with it all because it's where the business is now.
Click to expand...

It must be a struggle Ash I know, but you need to spend a bit more quality time just listening. Listening to stuff whilst you're on the phone or chatting to your mates really isn't good enough.
 
As a digital audio designer, I spend a vast amount of time listening to DAC’s; I therefore believe I'm in a good position to comment on the Audible effects of Jitter.

For me, the greatest Audible effect of Jitter is to collapse the L-R sound stage. It takes a very good system to be able to portray a “Wide" sound stage in the first instance - so I can believe that many people would not realise what is missing in the first place.

What I’m trying to say is, that you could upgrade your system with a DAC that has very good “Jitter” performance, but not gain the audible benefit due to weakness elsewhere within the replay chain…

John
 
Basil,

No the Room has very little to do with the "Sound Staging" performance of a system, unless your unlucky to have very poor room acoustics - I use electrostats in most places I have lived - and even with electrostats, the "room" has not been a major issue - although its true I do arrange the room around the Speakers...

With regards to "sound staging ability" it’s an area that sets apart the Men from the Boys when it comes to audio performance - even many "Costly" HiFi systems struggle to portray a realistic sound stage...
 
JohnW said:
Basil,

No the Room has very little to do with the "Sound Staging" performance of a system, unless your unlucky to have very poor room acoustics - I use electrostats in most places I have lived - and even with electrostats, the "room" has not been a major issue - although its true I do arrange the room around the Speakers...

With regards to "sound staging ability" it’s an area that sets apart the Men from the Boys when it comes to audio performance - even many "Costly" HiFi systems struggle to portray a realistic sound stage...
Click to expand...

Contralateral reflections from hard parallel walls will do for a sound stage, but you'd have to make a pig's breakfast of the DAC application notes to screw one up! :cool:

Here's a textbook application of a popular DAC, just to give an idea of how simple they are now and how little scope there is for getting it wrong.

4313922410
 
There are not many components in a modern DAC. It's a low power device, so nothing is expensive. All Dacs use similar IC's and ancillary components.

As a manufacturer, you would be hard pushed to spend more than £20 on all the necessary components, excluding the cabinet.

Most modern Dacs have a very similar spec and performance. There is no 'black-magic' involved. They either operate correctly and meet the required spec, or they are defective.

It's very difficult to understand why any Dac should cost more than £100 or so to the end user.

There is a lot of 'foo' and nonsense talked about un-realistically priced dacs in the 'high-end audiophile' world.

Most of it is intended to make the punter spend much more than is necessary.

JC
 
AVI said:
Contralateral reflections from hard parallel walls will do for a sound stage, but you'd have to make a pig's breakfast of the DAC application notes to screw one up! :cool:

Here's a textbook application of a popular DAC, just to give an idea of how simple they are now and how little scope there is for getting it wrong.

4313922410
Click to expand...

You messed up your URL, Ash.

High jitter router, perhaps?

4313922410_23a02785ec_z.jpg
 
AVI said:
Contralateral reflections from hard parallel walls will do for a sound stage, but you'd have to make a pig's breakfast of the DAC application notes to screw one up! :cool:

Here's a textbook application of a popular DAC, just to give an idea of how simple they are now and how little scope there is for getting it wrong.

4313922410
Click to expand...

Everything in the Eye of the beholder - looking at the picture of the DAC PCB layout I can see a poor design in many areas... and that's without looking at the schematic...

Guess I'm Looking foward to the Breakfast (but not what we get served here in China)!
 
I have listened to a number of DAC at various price points. True there are only subtle differences between them but it is these subtle differences we audiophiles appreciate. FWIW I settled on the Benchmark DAC1 HDR as it offers excellent sound at a sensible price.

Although a DAC now has very few components in it the devil is as always in the detail. Circuit board layout and grounding is very important as is PSU implementation. After the DAC chip some form of buffer is needed, again there is a lot to get right or wrong here also. It is the differences in the chosen compromises here that give the subtle differences between DAC.
 
This thread is getting amusing - we're into the £20 is all you need for te best DAC in the world.
(I'm sure it used to be £13 last year, but I guess inflation must've gone up.)
 
stevew_w said:
I have listened to a number of DAC at various price points. True there are only subtle differences between them but it is these subtle differences we audiophiles appreciate. FWIW I settled on the Benchmark DAC1 HDR as it offers excellent sound at a sensible price.

Although a DAC now has very few components in it the devil is as always in the detail. Circuit board layout and grounding is very important as is PSU implementation. After the DAC chip some form of buffer is needed, again there is a lot to get right or wrong here also. It is the differences in the chosen compromises here that give the subtle differences between DAC.
Click to expand...

You picked a Text Book DAC Steve, but the point I'm making is that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the Benchmark and others that are as well implemented, like for instance the one in our out of date Denon AVR1700, which is superbly made, costs £800 and is an excellent AV preamp as well.

You may also struggle to tell it from an M-Audio Transit, which is why I recommend people getting into computer music use it for comparison with more expensive ones they think they want. I've surprised quite a few golden ears with them and they are an excellent headphone amp too.

DACs are a waste of money on their own, they are intended to be parted of a more complex device, they technology is mature now and the differences between competent ones is microscopic, so not worth discussion IMO.

If you really are worried about sound quality the rest of any system is a weaker part of the link, not the "front end"

Ash
 
JohnW said:
Guess I'm Looking foward to the Breakfast (but not what we get served here in China)!
Click to expand...

I loved the breakfasts I had in china; loads of congee (though whether I could tell the difference between congee in china or in chinatown is another matter).
 
Interzone,

Your a very sick puppy!

I'm clutching my HP source in the unlikely event a real honest breakfast will arrive....

I'm waiting ............... Ok I give up, but don't touch my HP source....

The doctors are very nice here....
 
JohnW said:
Interzone,

Your a very sick puppy!

I'm clutching my HP source in the unlikely event a real honest breakfast will arrive....

I'm waiting ............... Ok I give up, but don't touch my HP source....

The doctors are very nice here....
Click to expand...

I prefer daddies sauce :)

But I know that I'm in the minority (of westerners) for loving real chinese breakfasts. Full english brekkies are overrated..... :p
 
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