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Widor Toccata

George J

Herefordshire member

Must be listened to to be believed. The Composer playing his own own music at aged about ninety in 1932 for HMV shows that velocity and absolute clarity of articulation are nothing compared to understanding what “he” meant in the music. And AD Blumlein’s EMI recording system does an amazing job of catching the performance on the wing.

Pleases enjoy!

George
 
I love organ music - so very difficult to get right on home hifi - and this is one of my favourite pieces.........................

Played via my laptop it sounds very like end-of-pier Wurlitzer, at best, but still great music.

Thankyou.
 
It's not a great rendition as he was well past it, being at the very end of his long tenure at St Sulpice. It's a very important musical document all the same.

Here's a pic of a lesser organist (me) at that same console in 2017.
 
On the whole, my thought is that this recording presents something much more significant than very a

'important musical document, ...'

I have never found that seeking technical perfection trumps comprehension of the music, and the often somewhat flawed but never the less enjoyable and mesmerising music making can bring far greater insight. I am for example of the view that few pianists performed on the level of musicianship of Edwin Fischer, though his technique could desert him on occasion.

Best wishes from George
 
On the whole, my thought is that this recording presents something much more significant than very a

'important musical document, ...'

I have never found that seeking technical perfection trumps comprehension of the music, and the often somewhat flawed but never the less enjoyable and mesmerising music making can bring far greater insight. I am for example of the view that few pianists performed on the level of musicianship of Edwin Fischer, though his technique could desert him on occasion.

Best wishes from George
Good general point, but in this instance I cannot agree with you. Yes, sometimes a composer's own performance adds something tangible to our understanding of a piece of music. This really does not.

I would love to hear CMW aged, say, 60 play this. Now that wold be interesting. Even more interesting would be a rendition of the whole symphony (the first couple of movements are much more interesting musically that the Toccata). But what we have here is a guy on the brink of (very late) retirement, in his late 80s, and most definitely past it. In fact he said at the time of the recording he was nearer the grave than the organ bench! I imagine he would have laughed if someone told him this performance was special in any way, musically.

The tempo is very variable (not, I think for reasons of insight, alas). Actually, one thing I like is that the tempo hovers around the mid 90s, not far below the crotchet = 100 that he marked on the score. This piece is almost invariably played a bit (or much) quicker. My own performance works out around 110 which feels a little more comfortable, is easier to maintain and (imho) gives the music just enough drive without being rushed.

One thing a steady tempo does allow is the opportunity to be meticulous in the execution of the little pairs of left hand semiquavers Widor was at great pains to spice the music with. They can seem random at first glance, but are clearly intentional and very carefully chosen. Sadly in this recording, many of them are fluffed owing to sheer loss of technique. Add to that the literally scores of wrong notes in the right hand.

So what we have is a very valuable document - the great CMW playing his most popular composition. But nothing more than that..

I've been familiar with this recording since the 1970s when I first learned the piece myself, and I remember the consensus in the "organ fraternity" at my music school (4 of my contemporaries are now world famous organists in their own right) apropos the quality of the playing. One thing all agreed on was the insight the slow tempo gave - it was probably played faster on average in those days than now.

I admit I might be missing something...but you would need to give specifics (bar numbers would be fine) as to how this ancient (but not as ancient as the poor organist!!) performance brings greater insight than the myriad performances on record which are technically assured, consistent in tempo and contain all the right notes in the right order.

Cheers,

Nic.
 
Dear Nic,

Widor is far from my normal favourite music, though there is a great deal of music that I knew and quite like, but which I would never bother with buying a recording or score.

So I am not about to argue with you about this old recording of what is quite rightly a well known and popular piece.

In reality I have little patience with most organ music except that of JS Bach. And yes I do have some of the scores for this! Given me by an organist friend, now deceased. I used to play and teach the double bass, and so am well accustomed to playing music that I would not go out of my way to listen to at a concert! My view was always that I hoped nobody could tell [from my playing] which music I adored and which I did not!

My favourite Bach organists are H Walcha and MC Alain. I do find that quite a good deal of Bach Organ music recordings seem to miss the clarity that Walcha especially manages. Some go too fast for clarity, while other use unclear recording techniques or perhaps unsuitable instruments. It is interesting to me that Walcha plays at a flowing tempo that seems natural. I prefer his mono series to the stereo remakes on the whole, and have never bought the stereo set, though I have listened to most of it as my late organist friend loaned me the recordings. Many years ago now of course.

Anyway please forgive my opening post. I simply hoped that someone else might discover the old performance and gain as much pleasure from it as I did.

George
 
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Hi George. I agree with pretty much every word you say. Nothing to forgive - it's simply amazing to hear Widor playing the organ he's synonymous with!

Best,

Nic.
 
Another organist reporting here...

Few comments:

Nothing more difficult than playing a piece on a tempo which I feel is too slow.

Having listened to many loudspeakers, I found that naims Ovators are working good for organmusic.

It's a pity that Ton Koopman does not play Widor since he is normally well capable of removing dust from overly known music.
 
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Nobody should doubt either the musical intention [of the performer], or the technical quality of the playing. For me it should go without saying that the multi-facetted genius of JS Bach has not yet been supplanted!

Please enjoy! George
 
And for something totally contemplative from the same composer and player.


Robert Schumann considered this a masterpiece ...

George
 
... and Brahms wrote a very nice 'Schmucke dich' as part of his 11 chorale preludes as well. One of my favorites to use in services since it is not too long.
 
[For me it should go without saying that the multi-facetted genius of JS Bach has not yet been supplanted!

Please enjoy! George

Absolutely, but I came to a point in my life - when I was 29, that I for the first time could admit that other composers could be good as well - compared to JS Bach. It was while listening to Bruckner 4. Later on, I started to admire Mozart (Jupiter Symphony) and Josquin as well.
 
"Absolutely, but I came to a point in my life - when I was 29, that I for the first time could admit that other composers could be good as well - compared to JS Bach.”

Strangely the other way round for me. I was in my thirties before I discovered much Bach. Since then I wonder at the time I wasted on lesser music. :)
 
"Absolutely, but I came to a point in my life - when I was 29, that I for the first time could admit that other composers could be good as well - compared to JS Bach.”

Strangely the other way round for me. I was in my thirties before I discovered much Bach. Since then I wonder at the time I wasted on lesser music. :)

I grew up in a family having a father being organist. So I was mentally programmed by Prelude / Fugues and Triosonatas.

What remains for me is that the 'lesser music' must have good counterpoint, otherwise I can't listen to it. Life has become difficult understanding counterpoint and harmony, but certain composers do really well. I should not forget to mention Brahms.
 
The mostly un-recognised, but, after Bach, the greatest “counterpoint” is that of Haydn, who happens to be my equal favourite composer with Bach!

Bruckner does makes significant use of counterpoint, but with Haydn it is there [almost without showing itself] and only study will shows its joyous ingenuity!

Best wishes from George
 
The mostly un-recognised, but, after Bach, the greatest “counterpoint” is that of Haydn, who happens to be my equal favourite composer with Bach!

Bruckner does makes significant use of counterpoint, but with Haydn it is there [almost without showing itself] and only study will shows its joyous ingenuity!

Best wishes from George

My little church choir is studying Haydn's kleine orgelmesse currently. It is a joyful piece of good music. Being the organist, I look forward to the benedictus.
 
As a sortie (at exit)? Hope the reeds were tuned - mine were not today :)
Well, obviously not as a prelude!

It was a visit to my old haunt, St Martin's Brighton. One of the churchwardens and his wife were celebrating their 45th and requested it. Not a problem usually...but the lovely 1880s unmodified Hill is famously heavy to play. So much so that legend has it there used to be a guinea in it for anyone who could play 3 verses of a hymn on full organ. Legend also has it that Vaughan Williams himself tried and failed.

I've played the Widor Toccata from age 13 and with most repertoire try to play it every 1 or 2 years. Never really a problem technically (apart from the last page if it's unavoidable to cross hands) and plays itself on a nice light mechanical or electric action. But at St Martin's...well! I can only manage from the recap (sf maestoso) down to the pedal breve F at the start of the coda with swell coupled! It then has to come off until the final chords. The rest is great or swell only. And I'm still knackered!

Fortunately where I play now is a modern mechanical and light as a feather.

Where do you play? I'm in Sussex.
 


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