Why CD players are not getting cheaper ?

[Pani]

Computer based playback is at an all time high at the moment. Most AV shows are also littered with rooms which use either good analogue setups or a digital front end based on a computer/hard disk. CD production and sales are at an all time low with clear signs of being irrelevant within a couple of years. Yet, when you look at the used market (audiogon, ebay, audio-markt etc), the prices of good CD players are still holding. The prices are actually very similar to what it was few years back. One would argue that people still have their CD collection so the players are also relevant. That is true but should'nt there be a visible dip in the prices considering that most audiophiles who are getting into media file playback are actually migrating permanently ? The convenience, versatility and availability of music in a hard disk playback system is at a whole new level and all/most of the users agree.

The observation is, while the sales of new CD players have gone down, the prices of used CD players (especially the decent ones) are holding firm. Is it because the sound of a good CD player (while playing Red book CD) is still better ?

 

[Clay B]

Cd play better? Probably not better but on a day to day basis at least as good for most people and very convenient and easy to use with only storage as a possible issue. Among the various formats it's all in the mastering for the most part. And then not everyone likes playing with computers, software, NAS', and the like. But let's keep this all real quiet as we have excitement and demand to generate and new product to sell!

 

[bownose]

To be honest I think the endgame is people giving up entirely on their ripped CD collections and just joining a streaming service. If I am already in a service and I feel like playing something I already have a file of, I just stream it. It makes ownership pointless.

 

[JezmondTutu]

I'm not sure I agree with that - some people still like owning the physical medium.

 

[Dick Bowman]

[... deleted ...]It makes ownership pointless.

Until the streaming "service" goes belly-up.

Or decides to delete things you want to hear again.

Or just decides they don't want to put some stuff online anyway.

Or they put their prices up because they just can.

Or you decide to stop paying subscriptions.

Personally, I purchase the music I want when it's available - then I keep it. My decisions, my destiny.

I think streaming is for people who really don't care very much about music and are just looking for a bit of sonic wallpaper.

 

[bownose]

>I think streaming is for people who really don't care very much about music and
>are just looking for a bit of sonic wallpaper.

On this you may be right. I'm certainly less bothered by what I listen to these days, I let the service decide for me based on my listening habits or whatever looks interesting on the landing page.

I've stopped listening to the same piece of music twice unless I do something nerdy like compare HiFis or something. I quite like the "Radio" aspect of Streaming. Relaxing control of what I listen to opens me up to things that surprise and knock me out of my comfort zone.

all of the other points can be batted away with the word "competition. If it gets too expensive people will go back to piracy. That's the market leveller, streaming has to be a better user-experience than piracy and ripping CDs and computers and NAS boxes and so on -- which it is.

 

[Purité Audio]

CD is the same data just a different carrier, lossless streaming is fantastic so much music to listen to,when I think of the time I spent ripping my CDs!
Keith.

 

[bownose]

Digital data will always migrate to its least containable and most distributable format possible. CDs are in the new music economy are quite expensive things to make. The Material cost, the shipping, the distribution to stores and so on are all very expensive even with oil prices low the manufacturing costs are a considerable burden on the revenues generated from a now fairly low yield product in an industry once almost entirely reliant on plastics and paper. Even if people want the physical artefact (and I seriously doubt the new generation of music listeners do, its too easy to imprint ourselves onto a wider populace) people simply are not bothered with keeping a thing like music if it is everywhere, cheap and easy. Like Tap Water, its there, you turn a tap, its there, we don't worry about the water companies suddenly tripling the cost of water (ok, perhaps we should).

CD Players are keeping their prices because they are being sold to enthusiasts and scarcity increases their value, this is not rocket economics.

 

[lennyw]

I guess it depends upon how many CDs one owns, and how much time one has.
I have >4000 mainly classical CDs (aren't I brilliant!?) and have no desire to transfer them all to a HDD, not least because of the problems of tagging.
So, I shall probably always need a good CD player, and I wonder whether decent players are still being made (this isn't a way of saying that they're not -- I simply don't keep up with what is coming out). In fact, I am not especially happy with my Sony SCD5400ES because it's a noisy disc spinner, and I do miss my Micromega Stage 5 which had a glorious sound quality, so much so, that I'm looking for one of those top-loader Micromegas from the 1990s right now, ie:

 

[Tony L]

To be honest I think the endgame is people giving up entirely on their ripped CD collections and just joining a streaming service. If I am already in a service and I feel like playing something I already have a file of, I just stream it. It makes ownership pointless.

Like the OP that's what I thought would happen too even though it is not my mindset and I still play the actual CD if I'm seriously listening (I just use streaming / rips for background or listening on the bus). Given the inability to buy mint boxed top-end Meridian, Naim, Audio Research, Krell etc CD players for say £300 or so implies the demand for good players is still very present, and I guess there are still far more folk like me than like you! This surprises me to be honest. I thought as a CD collector I was going to be an endangered species by now!

 

[HydeLea]

Yet to find any digital streamer that better's my Linn Sondek CD12 !

Had a demo side-by-side of the latest Linn offering at approx £11k and the CD12 bested it by miles .......

 

[PsB]

Take a look at the average age of people attending a classical concert (or for that matter a jazz concert). Average age 60, if I'm kind. Then think about whether these people want to (or are even able to) faff around ripping stuff, figuring out networks and protocols and NAS and messing around trying to find the interpretation they want on something like Spotify.

I have been listening recently to various streaming solutions at various Hifi retailers: even they are lost juggling between their different sources and streaming options and everything else, and when I'm looking for something very specific Tidal and others struggle to deliver it quickly and easily. "Can't find it right now, but I've got this fantastic recording of Brothers in Arms, a capella?" I use (among other things) a certain recording of Brendel playing the late Beethoven sonatas to judge things. You can't imagine the time it sometimes takes for the retailer to fish it out, scrolling down endless lists of "Artist: Beethoven". Brendel recorded them twice, to add to the confusion, and I want the later recording.

My CD collection is not huge but I like having the physical medium available. I don't want listening to be interrupted because the internet just went on the blink again (happens daily, even if the interruption is short) and I don't want to pay again to listen to music I have already bought. So I still have a CD player, and if/when it dies I will try to buy another, as good or better.

 

[JezmondTutu]

I like the convenience and choice of music had by streaming and I also love Spotify. But I still grab a cd on occasions and often play a newly bought one first before I burn it.

CD's are very attractive to me at the moment - at a quid a shot it's bargain music. Indeed I grabbed 140 titles recently via Facebook BuyitSellit for a tenner!

 

[seyles]

Given the inability to buy mint boxed top-end Meridian CD players for say £300

The trick with Meridian is to buy the 500 series DVD players; the hi-end DVD format seems to be more dead than CD, but the players spin CDs better than the CD players ever did using PC DVD rom units (so fixable too).

 

[Theo]

I guess it depends upon how many CDs one owns, and how much time one has.
I have >4000 mainly classical CDs (aren't I brilliant!?) and have no desire to transfer them all to a HDD, not least because of the problems of tagging.
So, I shall probably always need a good CD player, and I wonder whether decent players are still being made (this isn't a way of saying that they're not -- I simply don't keep up with what is coming out). In fact, I am not especially happy with my Sony SCD5400ES because it's a noisy disc spinner, and I do miss my Micromega Stage 5 which had a glorious sound quality, so much so, that I'm looking for one of those top-loader Micromegas from the 1990s right now, ie:

I have that very player One of the (many) things I love about it is that putting on a disc feels very similar to putting on an LP. I do the streaming thing too, but I still prefer to 'put on' a record I want to hear. I guess it's an age thing.

 

[bownose]

TI don't want listening to be interrupted because the internet just went on the blink again (happens daily, even if the interruption is short).

This is easily solved by cacheing the playlist/music before play its an option in all of the streaming services like offline mode or cached or takeout etc. You hot play and it downloads the FLAC and then before the track has ended the rest of the LP is already waiting.

The management of different variations of releases is I think what Roon (and other similar competitors) will attempt to address. My main concern is one delivery service monopolising the stream.

 

[PsB]

This is easily solved by cacheing the playlist/music before play its an option in all of the streaming services like offline mode or cached or takeout etc. You hot play and it downloads the FLAC and then before the track has ended the rest of the LP is already waiting.

The management of different variations of releases is I think what Roon (and other similar competitors) will attempt to address. My main concern is one delivery service monopolising the stream.

OK. I'm sure I'll get into it eventually, but it will take time and learning and then I will have to teach my wife (who is generally very bright but even thicker about these things than I am). We are being forced towards digital audio by living in several places and wanting to reduce stuff, but it is a painful process.

Roon looks interesting, but paying a subscription to be able to properly manage another subscription service so it can play music that is on a CD that I already have goes a bit against the grain.

Share your concerns about monopolies. Qobuz is struggling (operating under protection last time I looked). Who will be around in 10 years' time, and what will their business model look like?

 

[bownose]

What people are discovering is something libraries and research departments and business have been doing for years. Content Management. As we become more information dependent, home content management will be "a thing". I think there will be competition and open source equivalents if the idea of aggregation and content management for digital media in the home catches on and that will drive down prices. The spearhead is the expensive part.

This is a very interesting article I stumbeled upon a while back apologies if its been posted before but it shows David Byrne working through the contracting royalties he gets from Streaming and is a pretty balanced discussion. He paints a good and bad picture for streaming... A balanced and uncertain article.

http://davidbyrne.com/gently-down-the-stream

 

[Steven Toy]

If you listen to the music rather than just having it 'on' to fill the silence CD players generally sound better than streaming devices, certainly on a £ for £ basis. In other words, for a streamer to better a CD player it is likely to cost a lot more and decent high-end CD transports or players are pretty much untouchable.

Purite is half-right when he says the data is the same. It is, unless its a lossy file but it isn't just about the data. The means of storing and retrieving the data has a significant distortion-adding potential in the analogue domain. This distortion is heard as 'glare', 'grain' or the soundstage being rather two-dimensional.

If you've got music pootling away in the background you won't notice it. In fact, until you do a direct comparison you won't even know it's there so you can kid yourself it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better. If you are emotionally attached to the convenience aspect of streaming demanding objective proof to support my position will allow you to continue believing that this distortion does not exist.

Removing this distortion has a subtle yet profound effect on your listening habits. First of all it will seem as though there aren't as many 'bad recordings' in your music collection. The chorus sections of some tracks or indeed any louder musical passages will no longer make you wince or brace yourself for their coming if you've got the volume turned up a bit. Next, you will skip from one track to another less. You may even spend more time listening to entire albums and by that I mean listen not have on in the background while you click away on your tablet in order to argue with some twat like me on Pink Fish. You may also enjoy a wider range of music and music genres.

Anyway, this is why CD players are holding their value. Enough people know the truth.

Streaming is a good way to get access to new music and hear what's out there. It is essentially a tasting menu. If you want the full dish you'd best go buy the CD.

 

[Purité Audio]

If you listen to the music rather than just having it 'on' to fill the silence CD players generally sound better than streaming devices, certainly on a £ for £ basis. In other words, for a streamer to better a CD player it is likely to cost a lot more and high-end CD transports or players are pretty much untouchable.

Purite is half-right when he says the data is the same. It is, unless its a lossy file but it isn't just about the data. The means of storing and retrieving the data has a significant distortion-adding potential in the analogue domain. This distortion is heard as 'glare', 'grain' or the soundstage being rather two-dimensional.

If you've got music pootling away in the background you won't notice it. In fact, until you do a direct comparison you won't even know it's there so you can kid yourself it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better. If you are emotionally attached to the convenience aspect of streaming demanding objective proof to support my position will allow you to continue believing that this distortion does not exist.

Removing this distortion has a subtle yet profound effect on your listening habits. First of all it will seem as though there aren't as many 'bad recordings' in your music collection. The chorus sections of some tracks or indeed any louder musical passages will no longer make you wince or brace yourself for their coming if you've got the volume turned up a bit. Next, you will skip from one track to another less. You may even spend more time listening to entire albums and by that I mean listen not have on in the background while you click away on your tablet in order to argue with some twat like me on Pink Fish. You may also enjoy a wider range of music and music genres.

Anyway, this is why CD players are holding their value. Enough people know the truth.

Streaming is a good way to get access to new music and hear what's out there. It is essentially a tasting menu. If you want the full dish you'd best go buy the CD.

At last we agree.
Keith.