What is a Linn LP12 and when does it stop being an LP12.
- Thread starter Eyebroughty
- Start date
Darren
So gentle when he tries to understand.
Is that your prototype arm? How is it coming along? Or am I missing something?The LP12 is above all a style icon and marketing phenomenon. Just as all real Naim amps have chrome bumpers, so all proper Sondeks have a fluted afrormosia or walnut plinth with black paint on the under-side bevel, and the one true Sondek LP12 screen-printed 1970s Optima logotype on the arm board just like an Ariston. It doesn't really matter what else you do to it, if it lacks these crucial design features it fails entirely to be iconic, and is therefore not a Linn Sondek. It has become the Stranglers without Hugh Cornwell.
My flame-retardant suit is on - please be gentle with me as this post was meant to be in jest. Almost. ;-)
No style-setter would drive one of those great big repro Minis, after all.
For example, this is not a Sondek LP12 due to the non-iconic arm board.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Yes, that was prototype 0.1.3. Today I started listening to 0.1.4 which has carbon fibre tubes, see below. It's coming on very well and I am still on schedule for shipping within 6 months of patent application. Of course I'm going to say this, but it sounds very clean, detailed and punchy, with bass harmonies which are effortless to follow.
Darren
So gentle when he tries to understand.
Fascinating to see. Good luck with it.Yes, that was prototype 0.1.3. Today I started listening to 0.1.4 which has carbon fibre tubes, see below. It's coming on very well and I am still on schedule for shipping within 6 months of patent application. Of course I'm going to say this, but it sounds very clean, detailed and punchy, with bass harmonies which are effortless to follow.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Thank you!
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
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I really don't care what that mess is... but anyone who would use a worn out farm house doormat as a TT mat doesn't deserve decent sound..
The LP12 is above all a style icon and marketing phenomenon. Just as all real Naim amps have chrome bumpers, so all proper Sondeks have a fluted afrormosia or walnut plinth with black paint on the under-side bevel, and the one true Sondek LP12 screen-printed 1970s Optima logotype on the arm board just like an Ariston. It doesn't really matter what else you do to it, if it lacks these crucial design features it fails entirely to be iconic, and is therefore not a Linn Sondek. It has become the Stranglers without Hugh Cornwell.
My flame-retardant suit is on - please be gentle with me as this post was meant to be in jest. Almost. ;-)
No style-setter would drive one of those great big repro Minis, after all.
For example, this is not a Sondek LP12 due to the non-iconic arm board.
I really don't care what that mess is... but anyone who would use a worn out farm house doormat as a TT mat doesn't deserve decent sound..
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I really don't care what that mess is... but anyone who would use a worn out farm house doormat as a TT mat doesn't deserve decent sound..
It hasn't been used for a decade - it's not even set up. However, I intend to get it going again soon. Would you recommend a new mat?
2ManyBoxes
pfm Member
How about LP12M where the M stands for modificato.
I've given up on going to demonstrations of people's gear, though of course they are very kind to offer. It's a waste of time turning up if they say they're running LP12 / 72/ 250 / SBLs and it turns out that the LP12 has half a dozen OEM mods, the boards in the 72 / 250 are Avondale and the SBLs have different drivers and aren't sealed.
I think that no LP12 is unmodified because the sound is affected so much by whatever is underneath it, assuming it's not on the floor
Beyond a 'wobbly coffee table' Linn have never stated what table they use. I think they might have unofficially said an IKEA Lack table with a bit of modifying at one point, but nothing in print.
I've given up on going to demonstrations of people's gear, though of course they are very kind to offer. It's a waste of time turning up if they say they're running LP12 / 72/ 250 / SBLs and it turns out that the LP12 has half a dozen OEM mods, the boards in the 72 / 250 are Avondale and the SBLs have different drivers and aren't sealed.
I think that no LP12 is unmodified because the sound is affected so much by whatever is underneath it, assuming it's not on the floor
Beyond a 'wobbly coffee table' Linn have never stated what table they use. I think they might have unofficially said an IKEA Lack table with a bit of modifying at one point, but nothing in print.
I'm thinking that to qualify as an LP12 it must be:
1: Built in Scotland, by a grumpy dogmatic Scotsman.
2: Used only to play 'The Blue Nile' or other Linn approved records.
3: Installed by a Linn dealer who has certified your system, house and alcoholic beverages for compatibility.
1: Built in Scotland, by a grumpy dogmatic Scotsman.
2: Used only to play 'The Blue Nile' or other Linn approved records.
3: Installed by a Linn dealer who has certified your system, house and alcoholic beverages for compatibility.
m3trackboy
pfm Member
Interesting post, Is a NAP 250 with Avondale boards still a Naim or is it worth as much as a unmodified 250, The market suggests not even though IMHO it's a better amp.
It's not a Naim if you have made such wholesale changes. It's not worth as much as a std 250, no. It may be a better amp, I suspect it is. In this it's like the classic car thing. You can take a 1965 E Type and fit mechanical parts from a BMW M5. Better car, sure. It will have better stop, go and handling. It's worth a fraction of the original 3.8 E that won't see which way it went on a country road.
No. Why should it be? Whether it is better or not is subjective but more to the point, it's no longer as Naim designed it. If you buy a standard NAP 250 you know what it's going to sound like. A modified one, you don't know.
I'm not saying you shouldn't modify one, of it's your amplifier you can do what you like with it, but it's unreasonable to expect it to hold its value. Would you buy a modified Ford Fiesta? No, neither would I.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
I suppose there is like-for-like replacement, and proper modifications.
Sometimes, especially with vintage kit, you can't find original parts. Some say component-level swaps of semi-conductors can change the sound, but if that is unavoidable, I'd rather have a functioning piece of kit than a completely OEM boat anchor. My vintage Pioneers have been recapped, trim pots and diodes replaced and power transistors changed. Are they modified? I don't think so, as their circuits are exactly the same. Others might feel differently.
Sometimes, especially with vintage kit, you can't find original parts. Some say component-level swaps of semi-conductors can change the sound, but if that is unavoidable, I'd rather have a functioning piece of kit than a completely OEM boat anchor. My vintage Pioneers have been recapped, trim pots and diodes replaced and power transistors changed. Are they modified? I don't think so, as their circuits are exactly the same. Others might feel differently.
I agree. Even if you get a Naim amp serviced at a Naim approved repairer they may use different capacitors from the original ones due to availability etc. But the circuit and ethos of the amp will be the same.
If you change the circuit or add to it with a view to changing the sound it's a modification. It's no longer as the maker intended it to sound.
What Linn have done is effectively create a diverse range of turntables which look similar on the outside and share the same name! Which they are free to do, it's their product, but it does give rise to the issue that it's hard to then criticize others when they do exactly the same thing to it. To put it in perspective, there is less difference between the NAP 180 and 250 than there is between any of the production variants of the LP12.
I
I would! Let's see now, about 150 natasp BHP from say the 1600 or 1800 engine, a freeflow exhaust and manifold, not too lumpy a cam so it's not totally flat below 3000 rpm. Big brakes and decent shocks, polybushes to sharpen up the handling.
That's a Fiesta I'd buy.
Everyone is allowed to upgrade everything across their hifi setup but woe betide anyone who might want to move away from the standard LP12 template.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
This is not my experience. My standard NAP250 was not satisfying. I sent it to Naim for standard service. The returned amp sounded nothing like the one I sent in - chalk and cheese. Thankfully it was, of course, vastly better, but the service was expensive. This is normal. If you buy second hand Naim you don't know what you are getting.
The same goes for a used LP12. In the old days it was notoriously unreliable, and any lacklustre performance was always blamed on the vagaries of 'setup', to the extent that LP12 users frequently mention the name of their particular high priest of setup as an appeal to authority to convince others that it is really meant to sound like that. I imagine things are better now in that the higher spec Sondek has obsoleted some of the setup variability, but I would still say there is a chance that you don't know what you are getting if you buy a used one.