What’s the deal with vintage MM cartridges ???
- Thread starter LPSpinner
- Start date
From my basic research on the interwebs I think the M44 and M55 bodies are almost (if not actually) identical, it's only the stylus that sets it apart. This is kind of handy since you can put the rondel mounted conical stylus back on the shelf and use one of the nude elliptical tips that track those inner grooves a little better. I also understand that the M44/M55 bodies are almost identical to "HiFi' models M97 and M91. The HiFi version have a slightly lower output (3.5mV~5.7mV) where the M44 & M55 gives you a nice spicey (6.2mV~9.5mV) for those who like it LOUD!!! I also believe the M44 & M55 bodies were designed for "professional" use in broadcast or DJ applications, this would explain the conical tips and the "S" shaped cantilever that looks like it can take some serious user abuse and back cueing. I wouldn't like to try back cueing on a 2M bronze on my MC30.
I must admit I'm developing a curiosity for the older Sures purely for nostalgia. I see also that Jico are now "remanufacturing" the M44/55 body as a "J44". I'm not sure if they have grabbed Shures's tooling or have reverse engineered the body from scratch but the prices for a body only seem reasonable and you can mix & match with a Jico stylus of your choice.
If you haven't already discovered Home - Resistor Magazine, it's a good read for lovers of the vintage aesthetic. The sure articles listed below...
Shure M44-7: A Cartridge Heard by Millions, Known by Few - Resistor Magazine |
Review: Six Vintage Shure Cartridges - Resistor Magazine |
LPSpinner.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Higher output can only mean more turns and higher inductance with stronger electrical resonance fussiness
Thats pretty much what I figured. The higher inductance of the high output coils will interreact with the outside world differently. I suspect the distortion mechanisms exacerbated by these interactions are what gives the M44/55 its character and makes it more desirable, Audo is a strange world.
LPSpinner
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Permalloy is a strange magnetic material, very non linear, so lots of distortion added
Tony L
Administrator
After reading the reviews in the Resistor magazine you linked to I’m really tempted to mount my 44-5 for a listen. I have a spare SME shell, so not much effort involved at all.
Here are mine, the M44-5 came with an old split-weight 3009 where I assume it was original as they date from the same time, I have its paperwork somewhere. I think the brown stylus is an M44E. I can’t remember where the M55E came from, maybe a Lenco many years ago. I think the stylus is a pretty chunky conical DJ tip, but I may be wrong. I’ll have a good look at both with a microscope later, though being a record dealer I’ve got lots of reject vinyl around if they look a bit marginal. The Resistor reviews suggest they could be great fun, just a shame they didn’t test the M44 with a nicer elliptical tip. They have to be worth a listen!
Stop it Tony !!! ... Now your just showing off
Seriously though, nice find ... it could be an interesting listen, try it on some old vinyl with the conical tips and see how it goes then blow some cash on the Jico stylus if you like how it sounds.
I'm interested to see what you think.
LPSpinner.
Tony L
Administrator
As I understand it, and I do have quite a lot of vintage Shure paperwork knocking around, I think the brown stylus fitted to the M44-5 in the picture is an M44E, so an .0004 x .0007” radius elliptical with a 1.75-4.0g tracking force range. The output is apparently a crazy 9.3mV! I’m pretty certain the brown stylus is just the logical replacement a dealer would have given its original owner in the mid-late ‘70s. Given its home was a 3009 it would have been a proper hi-fi cartridge. As I understand it the 44-5 was the top Shure in the range prior to the release of the V15.
The white stylus may be a 44-7, so a .0007 conical that tracks 1.5-3.0g and has an even more insane 11mV output. Thinking about it this M55E was in the 3009 mounted on the TD-150 in the bargain eBay ‘radiogram’ job lot I landed about 15 years ago with the Tannoys, 303 etc. The white stylus logically doesn’t belong to it. It should have a yellow elliptical. As such I think I have a vintage M44 with a choice of two styluses and a spare M55E body, though practically they are both the same. I’ll use the white M44-5 as it looks cooler!
Through the stereo microscope they both look pretty good, certainly no chips or obviously heavy wear. I’ll have a better look through my higher magnification Olympus later.
Capacitance wise I suspect my Verdier valve pre will be perfectly happy, it certainly likes an M95ED I’ve also got. What it will make of the high output I have no idea!
Tony L
Administrator
PS Quoting this from the ever wonderful Lenco Heaven:
“There were 8 stylus options for the M44/55 series:
N44-5 .5mil conical red grip up to 1.5g VTF
N44G .7mil conical grey grip up to 1.5g VTF (I've seen early Shure catalogues with .6mil quoted)
N44C .7mil conical light blue grip 3-5g VTF
N44-7 .7mil conical white grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-1 1.0mil conical blue grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-3 2.5mil conical green grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44E .4x.7mil elliptical brown grip 1.75g-4g VTF
N55E .2x.7mil elliptical yellow grip up to 2g VTF(up to 1.5g in early catalogues, same specifications as the V15-I) - modern ones may be .3x.7mil.
The N44G, N44C, N44-7, N44-3, N44E and N55E were re-issued as "improved" in the 1980s and have flip down stylus guards.”
Very useful information to have to hand.
“There were 8 stylus options for the M44/55 series:
N44-5 .5mil conical red grip up to 1.5g VTF
N44G .7mil conical grey grip up to 1.5g VTF (I've seen early Shure catalogues with .6mil quoted)
N44C .7mil conical light blue grip 3-5g VTF
N44-7 .7mil conical white grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-1 1.0mil conical blue grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-3 2.5mil conical green grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44E .4x.7mil elliptical brown grip 1.75g-4g VTF
N55E .2x.7mil elliptical yellow grip up to 2g VTF(up to 1.5g in early catalogues, same specifications as the V15-I) - modern ones may be .3x.7mil.
The N44G, N44C, N44-7, N44-3, N44E and N55E were re-issued as "improved" in the 1980s and have flip down stylus guards.”
Very useful information to have to hand.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
FWIW the British Library Sound Archive uses M44-7s mounted on a stock SL1210 for vinyl digitisation.
When I visited the studio the engineer showed me a range of different ESC styli they use for different formats.
When I visited the studio the engineer showed me a range of different ESC styli they use for different formats.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I have a Radio Shack R25EDT knocking around that I understand is a rebadged M44/55 type cartridge - but with a handy stylus guard mounted in the body.
It looks like Radio Shack offered a range of rebadged Shures but I've no idea how they compare.
It looks like Radio Shack offered a range of rebadged Shures but I've no idea how they compare.
Tony L
Administrator
Now mounted back in the very rare solid SME shell from whence it came (a key part of the reason I bought the arm). The headshell wires are unnecessarily flamboyant being borrowed from a very nice Nagaoka magnesium headshell I really should get around to selling. I’ve had a good look at the stylus and it looks fine to me, I can’t see any obvious wear at 100x magnification. It is certainly safe to use. I’ll stick it in the 124 and give it a listen sometime fairly soon.
PS Given the April 64 price list I suspect that is when the cart body and SME arm it was installed in were purchased. The arm has its own thread here.
Tony L
Administrator
This worked out real easy! The stylus to mount distance is the same as the Nagaoka, so no need to realign the arm (SMEs slide in their base rather than it being a headshell thing), and if I move the rider-weight all the way to the back without adjusting the main weight at all I get a reading of just under 3g, which is around the median of its tracking range. Result! This makes swapping carts literally a 2 minute job! I’m running a little tail-down VTA wise as I don’t really want to lose the Nagaoka’s setting.
Initial impressions are it is seriously loud and ‘in yer face’, a little lacking in refinement, maybe a little hard, but it is great fun. I’m still on my first record, as pictured, a UK 1st press of Stanley Clark’s first album which in fairness is a very loud and in yer face cut. It kicks!
I can’t see it worrying the MP-500 long term, but it certainly has something very good about it in exactly the way the review suggests. Great to have it as an alternative. I’ll definitely keep it mounted in the headshell.
Tony L
Administrator
After further listening and dialling it in a bit better I’m really liking this ancient thing. It loves jazz and kind makes everything sound like it has a Rudy Van Gelder stamp in the run-off. It has real mid-band presence and punch, forward, dynamic and fun. There is no fizz or tizz at the top, if anything it is a little dark, but cymbals have real weight and sound very real. Vocal sibilance is clean and controlled, it tracks really nicely. The bass is truly visceral. It is very tight and fast. Very ‘flat-earth’.
The comparison to the MP-500 is really interesting. The Nag goes up higher, goes down lower, and is much more detailed. It is just more informative, has more space, exposes layers better, but it lacks the visceral punch and life of the Shure. They are both really good, and I’d be very reluctant to rank them as they are so very different. They each bring a different skillset.
I love the way the Shure does brass, it is so present and has so much body to it. Again reminds me very much of an RVG cut, and why I like them so much. It just has that same EQ and mid-centric presentation. I AB’d a Tone Poet, Wayne Shorter’s ETC, and I prefer that with the Shure to the Nag. With an actual RVG cut, e.g. my Liberty Somethin’ Else I’d go the other way and pick the Nag.
I certainly understand why people like these old Shures so much. It is also a real eye-opener to just how good hi-fi was 55-60 years ago, as that is when this whole TD-124/II, 3009, M44-5 front end dates from!
The comparison to the MP-500 is really interesting. The Nag goes up higher, goes down lower, and is much more detailed. It is just more informative, has more space, exposes layers better, but it lacks the visceral punch and life of the Shure. They are both really good, and I’d be very reluctant to rank them as they are so very different. They each bring a different skillset.
I love the way the Shure does brass, it is so present and has so much body to it. Again reminds me very much of an RVG cut, and why I like them so much. It just has that same EQ and mid-centric presentation. I AB’d a Tone Poet, Wayne Shorter’s ETC, and I prefer that with the Shure to the Nag. With an actual RVG cut, e.g. my Liberty Somethin’ Else I’d go the other way and pick the Nag.
I certainly understand why people like these old Shures so much. It is also a real eye-opener to just how good hi-fi was 55-60 years ago, as that is when this whole TD-124/II, 3009, M44-5 front end dates from!
Wow, that little white bodied M44 looks like it belongs in that kit and it all looks period correct. It sounds like the cartridge works well with 50’s / 60,s Jazz and probably some classic 60’s Rock & Roll as well. From what I have read, the high output from the M44 is partially what gives the cartridge its character and sense of fun. I also think the M44’s lack of resolution at the High frequencies probably helps smooth over the limitations of the recordings from that period.
I am slightly curious to see how an M44 would sound on my Technics SL1210, being a modern deck, it might not have the same “joie de vivre” but it may work well with some of my vintage recordings. Sometimes the 2M Bronze on my Techie can sound a little too forensic with older recordings.
Happy listening
LPSpinner
I am slightly curious to see how an M44 would sound on my Technics SL1210, being a modern deck, it might not have the same “joie de vivre” but it may work well with some of my vintage recordings. Sometimes the 2M Bronze on my Techie can sound a little too forensic with older recordings.
Happy listening
LPSpinner
Yep, love what the P77 does, so much so I have several including an Mg body with original plastic case. Also 2 P77s in full retail packaging 1 including the spec sheet. Also have an E77 & C77, with regards the loading these like to see between 300 & 400 pf which I achieve using a pair of T shaped RCA splitters and loading plugs.
Will be taking the P77 Mg and an OC5 to use on a 401/R200 for my Wam show system this year.
Tony L
Administrator
I’d love to, but sadly a non-starter due to my using the (much better sounding) ferrous iron sub-platter on the 124. I can get away with some MCs, e.g. SPUs, 103s etc, but the Decca is apparently not usable. A shame as I really like them, in fact the old SC4E may well be the best cart I’ve ever heard. At least from a life and dynamics perspective.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Don't think anyone else has mentioned them, so I'll add that I use the "Expert Stylus Company" to check my V15/III stylii. They can do refurbs, etc. But mine were reported as 'OK' when I had them checked.
Yes, MMs in general are very load fussy if you want a flat response. But correctly loaded a V15 can deliver better max transients than any other cart I've tried. Still using mine to make digital transfers. TBH my main problem at present with that is a dodgy pot on the speed control of my DD Technics TT! Carts are fine. (Fingers are crossed!)
Yes, MMs in general are very load fussy if you want a flat response. But correctly loaded a V15 can deliver better max transients than any other cart I've tried. Still using mine to make digital transfers. TBH my main problem at present with that is a dodgy pot on the speed control of my DD Technics TT! Carts are fine. (Fingers are crossed!)