What’s the deal with vintage MM cartridges ???
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Kostas
pfm Member
daytona600
Registered User
Dual , Braun , Revox , Realistic / Tandy all had V15
Wow! 8-0
Tony L
Administrator
A VN35E in pretty decent condition turned up today. Hard to gauge against the VN35HE I already have, which should be better, but initial impressions are it isn’t quite so bright (in a good way), which surprised me. I’ll give it a proper listen later. I actually got two of them and a body in order to properly select, so I’ve stuck some Shure bits and bobs in the classified room as I’m paying way too much exploring this stuff at present! I really don’t need to keep duplicates as my plan is to just explore the original styli and then move onto various Jico options that are feasible long-term. I just want a firm picture in my mind of where the originals sit. Anyway, a couple of V15 and M55 bodies up for grabs.
Tony L
Administrator
I took this pic earlier for a classifieds room thread, but may as well stick it here too as its the V15/III’s little sibling with very much the same basic sound, and I quite like the picture (even though it isn’t too detailed, so a pretty poor ad!)!
I’m just focussing my attention on the M44/M55E and V15/III, and to that aim I stuck a fairly heftyorder in at Jico yesterday for a the Basie Club edition elliptical VN35EBN (the micro-ridge variant is long gone) and a nude M55E stylus. That will answer a few questions, most specifically is running these ancient MMs a long-term strategy I can live with? My hope is I prefer the Jico styluses to my variable condition collection of originals for both carts, but that is far from a given. At least I have a benchmark. This done I’ll later take Mike up on his offer to borrow the SAS and see if I prefer that to the Basie in the V15.
As ever not a cheap journey, but there is something I really like about both that I feel is worth pursuing. The big question is long-term potential. As obsolete vintage MM carts go the V15/III and M44 series seem very well supported by Jico with all manner of options, and I have really nice bodies for both so it looks to have future potential.
Craig B
Re:trophile
That brings back memories. My first decent phono cartridge, $180 complete with a Pioneer belt-drive turntable. The clocks and gongs on my then also brand new copy of DSOTM (Canadian Harvest pressing) scared the hell out of everyone in the house.
I took this pic earlier for a classifieds room thread, but may as well stick it here too as its the V15/III’s little sibling with very much the same basic sound, and I quite like the picture (even though it isn’t too detailed, so a pretty poor ad!)!
I’m just focussing my attention on the M44/M55E and V15/III, and to that aim I stuck a fairly heftyorder in at Jico yesterday for a the Basie Club edition elliptical VN35EBN (the micro-ridge variant is long gone) and a nude M55E stylus. That will answer a few questions, most specifically is running these ancient MMs a long-term strategy I can live with? My hope is I prefer the Jico styluses to my variable condition collection of originals for both carts, but that is far from a given. At least I have a benchmark. This done I’ll later take Mike up on his offer to borrow the SAS and see if I prefer that to the Basie in the V15.
As ever not a cheap journey, but there is something I really like about both that I feel is worth pursuing. The big question is long-term potential. As obsolete vintage MM carts go the V15/III and M44 series seem very well supported by Jico with all manner of options, and I have really nice bodies for both so it looks to have future potential.
Tony L
Administrator
Whilst fiddling around I’ve come to the conclusion that some of the brightness I’ve been observing is actually just my system. I ran a couple of very quick and dirty pink-noise tests (I have the HFS69 vinyl and a Stereophile CD) and they were actually remarkably similar both highlighting the ‘saddle/loudness contour’ balance I know my system has and that in most respects I like. As such I took the backs off the Tannoy cabs and knocked the Monitor Gold crossover ‘roll-off’ control down a notch, so it’s one less than ‘level’ now. I know most Tannoy folk seem to hate this control as it is quite a blunt tool, but I prefer it to the ‘level’ control as it only impacts the very top frequencies. The ’level’ control acts on the whole compression driver, so drops from 1kHz upwards, which only deepens the ‘saddle’/‘smiley face’ response. Anyway, quite happy with the result two days in. Still plenty of treble energy (the ‘saddle’ is still there), but it sounds smoother. I could possibly get away with another click, but it would likely be too dull. At present it is still a bit ‘up’ at 8-16kHz, but I’ve got 60 year old rock musician’s ears so anything above 10kHz is little of my business.
Here’s a very lazy, quick and dirty state of play (i.e. roll-off -1). The plot above is the V15, though it is very similar to the CD. Just an iPad Pro and a free app with the iPad plonked on my listening seat. To be honest I don’t even know which end of the iPad to point forwards, I think it has mics at both ends! When reading the plot read the little lines above the bars, not the bars which continually move and are just captured at the precise point I hit pause.
I will at some point do it again properly with REW, a calibrated measuring mic and a decent mic-stand. I do have these things! I just want to get used to the sound first. I don’t think it is a million miles off though, I know my system has a bit of a ‘loudness contour’, it is deliberate as I don’t listen loud and coupled with the remarkable scale and ease of the Tannoys means I don’t have an itch to crank it up to get any impact.
PS I really need to find someone really skilled with a woodworking router to cut me some holes in the cabinet rear panel as taking the back doors off to make an adjustment is a real PITA! I have zero woodworking skills and I’m certainly not going to learn on an irreplaceable pair of vintage speakers!
Here’s a very lazy, quick and dirty state of play (i.e. roll-off -1). The plot above is the V15, though it is very similar to the CD. Just an iPad Pro and a free app with the iPad plonked on my listening seat. To be honest I don’t even know which end of the iPad to point forwards, I think it has mics at both ends! When reading the plot read the little lines above the bars, not the bars which continually move and are just captured at the precise point I hit pause.
I will at some point do it again properly with REW, a calibrated measuring mic and a decent mic-stand. I do have these things! I just want to get used to the sound first. I don’t think it is a million miles off though, I know my system has a bit of a ‘loudness contour’, it is deliberate as I don’t listen loud and coupled with the remarkable scale and ease of the Tannoys means I don’t have an itch to crank it up to get any impact.
PS I really need to find someone really skilled with a woodworking router to cut me some holes in the cabinet rear panel as taking the back doors off to make an adjustment is a real PITA! I have zero woodworking skills and I’m certainly not going to learn on an irreplaceable pair of vintage speakers!
Tony L
Administrator
FedEx delivered my Jico order today, all safe and sound despite some tracking confusion. I’ve very briefly tried the VN35EBN and first impressions are it is great. Maybe a little higher output than the original Shure VN35HE, but it seems to have more presence and punch to it. Obviously I need to listen to it at length and maybe dial it in a bit.
One thing that impressed me hugely is the stylus assembly is exactly the same weight as the original Shure according to my digital scales, 0.54g, so no need to rebalance the arm or make weight compensation. The EBN is specified as the same 0.75-1.25g range as the original Shure VN35E and VN35HE, so my brief test was at a smidge over 1g as that is what I’ve been running the ancient Shure styluses at. Seemed fine based on one quick track (IGY, Nightfly, as I know that inside out).
This range of nude Jico tips really are tiny! Look nice under the microscope, I had a quick look just to try and form a mental image of ‘new’ for these. The M55E tip is tiny too, dwarfed by the huge cantilever, which they seem to have duplicated very well with its gentle ‘s’ bend. The V15 obviously being far thinner and more conventional in modern terms. Very happy, this means the V15/III is a viable cart as long as Jico make tips as far as I’m concerned.
The only thing I don’t like is Jico do that thing Japanese cart manufacturers seem to do in quoting staggeringly low life-spans for their carts. I get the impression it is extreme honesty and the figure given is the point the slightest hint of wear can be detected at really high magnification by an experienced eye, not the point one should change. The enclosed spec sheet says 100-200 hours, I’d personally expect 1000 minimum from a cart playing clean mint records, especially at just 1g. I know I’ve struggled to see wear with my various Nagaoka MP-500 styluses even adter a couple of years if use, though that has a far more complex tip profile that will outlive an elliptical. I certainly want a couple of years out of a stylus, at least I can see this stuff now!
Will report back with more!
One thing that impressed me hugely is the stylus assembly is exactly the same weight as the original Shure according to my digital scales, 0.54g, so no need to rebalance the arm or make weight compensation. The EBN is specified as the same 0.75-1.25g range as the original Shure VN35E and VN35HE, so my brief test was at a smidge over 1g as that is what I’ve been running the ancient Shure styluses at. Seemed fine based on one quick track (IGY, Nightfly, as I know that inside out).
This range of nude Jico tips really are tiny! Look nice under the microscope, I had a quick look just to try and form a mental image of ‘new’ for these. The M55E tip is tiny too, dwarfed by the huge cantilever, which they seem to have duplicated very well with its gentle ‘s’ bend. The V15 obviously being far thinner and more conventional in modern terms. Very happy, this means the V15/III is a viable cart as long as Jico make tips as far as I’m concerned.
The only thing I don’t like is Jico do that thing Japanese cart manufacturers seem to do in quoting staggeringly low life-spans for their carts. I get the impression it is extreme honesty and the figure given is the point the slightest hint of wear can be detected at really high magnification by an experienced eye, not the point one should change. The enclosed spec sheet says 100-200 hours, I’d personally expect 1000 minimum from a cart playing clean mint records, especially at just 1g. I know I’ve struggled to see wear with my various Nagaoka MP-500 styluses even adter a couple of years if use, though that has a far more complex tip profile that will outlive an elliptical. I certainly want a couple of years out of a stylus, at least I can see this stuff now!
Will report back with more!
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
FWIW The "Expert Stylus" people in my experience take the view that the basic wear of use tends to make the stylus shape a *better* fit to the groove. This assumes you start off with a sensible shape and tracking/compliance/tip-mass force levels. Result being more of a 'polish' than making the shape rough on the LP. Their judgement on my ancient Shure styli was that there was no need for a change - after *well* over a decade of use in each case.
The unknown, though, is what the compliance/tip-mass force requirements may be for a new stylus. More to it than a small neat diamond. Do Jico publish measured values? And has anyone run examples though some of the standard test LPs?
Tony L
Administrator
I’d love to know this myself. My suspicion is the Jico VN35EBN I’ve recently fitted is more compliant than the >40 year old Shure originals I have (which will likely have hardened to some degree). I suspect it matches the Shure original spec pretty well. It is very good so far. It seems rock solid in the groove at 1g, as in fairness does the Shure VN35HE. I like it, it sounds better than the others I have.
I can see wear on the two examples of original VN35E tips I have, so these things are certainly not immortal! I think they are still safe, but they look like the middle picture in the Shure microscope guide. I can certainly see the “eyes”. The VN35HE is harder to figure out, that seems to have faired better. Obviously I have no idea how many hours any of these have done, or on what arms or condition of records.
I’m running in optimal conditions with a mathematically ideal low mass arm (fixed shell 3009 Improved) and with wet-vacuum cleaned records, so I should see about the most stylus life the Jico can give, but I’m certainly expecting it to wear!
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Can you use a test LP to find the frequency and width of the LF compliance resonance? Won't be correct for HF, but a guide for lower frequencies and say if it is similar to the Shure. Ideally, do this in horizontal and vertical. If you're not sure about the spectrum actually of the disc modulation, do this at 45rpm as well as 33rpm to see if the resonance stays in the same place!
Tony L
Administrator
I’ve only got HFS69, and not in the best of condition (I’d certainly not trust the high-gain trackability bands). FWIW I really don’t like test LPs, they all encourage setting up for worst-case scenarios and as a result far less than optimal sound quality IMHO. They encourage too higher weight and too much bias. I only keep HFS69 for the pink-noise band! I set everything else by ear.
There were also quite a number of Gray clones made by Japanese firms way back when.
Some of the folks on Lenco Heaven have had good things to say about these modern clones manufactured in Ukraine.
They look cool, but I've just read the instruction sheet and it looks quite complicated to fit and set up and that is coming from someone that can set up a Hadcock blindfolded.
Craig B
Re:trophile
I wouldn't describe the Grey 108 as complicated, quite the contrary, as these were broadcast arms that were intended to allow quick change of pre-weighted cartridges that essentially automatically set tracking force merely by being slid into place at the front of the tonearm. This is why the front of these types of arms tend to be open ended. The only real issue for modern collectors is that the mounting sleds and weights were specific to the most common broadcast cartridge makes/models of the time, none of which exist other than as collectibles anymore. I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with custom weights for specific modern cartridges as DIY project.
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paulfromcamden
Baffled
I bought a JICO SD (synthetic diamond) M44G stylus last week and got around to fitting it in a M44MB today.
Early days but so far it seems a notch above the cheapo Tonar stylus that was in there - so for £50 I'm happy.
And most importantly it's bright blue and has JICO written on the front so I can't mistake it for anything else.
www.jico-stylus.com
Early days but so far it seems a notch above the cheapo Tonar stylus that was in there - so for £50 I'm happy.
And most importantly it's bright blue and has JICO written on the front so I can't mistake it for anything else.
N44G IMP SD – JICO
www.jico-stylus.com
Mike1965
pfm Member
I bought a Shure M55E from Tony L about 5 weeks ago to try on my Simplex.
A few years ago I had a loan of a V15 Mk2 and I didn't connect with it and after a week or so I gave it back. I'm not sure if it was a loading capacitance mismatch but my system is still the same (Croft RIAA) and the M55E sounded slightly ragged at the top end for a few hours but settled down after a few albums.
A big bold fun sound with a particularly tuneful bass. I am considering a stylus upgrade. Any suggestions for improvement?
A few years ago I had a loan of a V15 Mk2 and I didn't connect with it and after a week or so I gave it back. I'm not sure if it was a loading capacitance mismatch but my system is still the same (Croft RIAA) and the M55E sounded slightly ragged at the top end for a few hours but settled down after a few albums.
A big bold fun sound with a particularly tuneful bass. I am considering a stylus upgrade. Any suggestions for improvement?