Upgrading to ATC SCM40 loudspeakers
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alanbeeb
pfm Member
Sure, there must be dozens of them available. Yes, a combined dac/pre is a good idea with active speakers but no need to spend a fortune - lots of very good thing around at £1k or less will do very nicely. Cambridge, Benchmark, Mytech, Chord, M-Tech etc. As a preamp, My Oppo HA-1 replaced a Spectral DMC-30S which must have cost goodness-knows-what back in its day but the HA-1 was not at all embarrassed. Diminishing returns cuts in very, very steeply in electronics.
Cereal Killer
432
I’ve had many active systems over the years with really excellent DAC/Preamps. But a preamp with DAC is a different thing really
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Try and hear both passive and active versions side by side if you can,
Keith
Keith
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Man I am not the person to ask, I took a pair of the passive 40’s in p/ex, the owner said he preferred the passive to active versions , I had an active pair of 40’s which sounded good ,another part exchange but not active and passive together at the same time .
I suspect that in the case of ATC there wouldn’t be a huge difference in SQ, ( it would be interesting to hear both side by side) having the amps built in at least removes one source of anxiety.
Keith
I suspect that in the case of ATC there wouldn’t be a huge difference in SQ, ( it would be interesting to hear both side by side) having the amps built in at least removes one source of anxiety.
Keith
manicatel
pfm Member
Hi Keith, thanks for the reply.
Most users seem to suggest the actives are a significant step up in quality compared to the passives, even if used with a decent amp such as a Vitus or maybe even an ATC integrated. I guess thats why you need your own demo & not just 100% rely on forum & magazine opinion!
Most users seem to suggest the actives are a significant step up in quality compared to the passives, even if used with a decent amp such as a Vitus or maybe even an ATC integrated. I guess thats why you need your own demo & not just 100% rely on forum & magazine opinion!
Sean K
pfm Member
I had the current spec 40s with an olive 250, they were superb and i was happy for these to be my forever speakers, but the amp ran quite hot and I wasn't confdent I'd be able to crank them when I had the house to myself and they certsinly lost some of the dynamic quality at higher volumes. I added a second 250 and biamped passively; much better, but felt this was not an optimal solution. Another factor was looking at how much money was tied up in having two, recently serviced 250s; it just seemed daft to be spending so much on a compromise. I resolved to sell the naim power amps ( after nearly 20 happy years) and either try an ATC P1 or P2 ( much better value) or swap the lot for active 40s.
Then some used, current spec active 50s came up; one never sees these for sale in this part of the world, so I bit the buyer's hand off.
I am a biased ATC fan, (this is my third pair), but the 40s are superb. Just don't shortchange yourself with the power amp.
Btw, the notion that ATCs don't sound good at low volume doesn't fit with my experience.
Then some used, current spec active 50s came up; one never sees these for sale in this part of the world, so I bit the buyer's hand off.
I am a biased ATC fan, (this is my third pair), but the 40s are superb. Just don't shortchange yourself with the power amp.
Btw, the notion that ATCs don't sound good at low volume doesn't fit with my experience.
Musicraft
Trade: Musicraft
All things being equal SCM50A's and SCM100A's over SCM40A's. Either way try and maximise the performance of the NAC-N 272 with the 555 PS DR.
Musicraft
Trade: Musicraft
In our experience in four years on no one has chosen passive SCM40's over active SCM40's.
Cereal Killer
432
I agree with Rick, 40a’s always over passive.
ATC simple make amazing active speakers, it is there true strength and the core of the company’s philosophy
ATC simple make amazing active speakers, it is there true strength and the core of the company’s philosophy
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Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
I have heard passive and active ATC40 side by side and there is a huge difference in sound quality. The passives were fed by good amps so I doubt that was an issue.
Patu
pfm Member
I've used passive 40's from 2015 and recently upgraded to active version. I drove the passives with Naim DAC + SuperNait2 with HCDR and later on added TeddyXPS to Naim DAC and replaced HCDR with TeddyCap. This combination pleased me very much over the years. Even when driven with SN2, SCM40's are very fast and still powerful sounding speakers. I had PMC 20.23 before them and they simply couldn't compete on any area against 40's.
Then recently our local dealer decided to finally buy demo pair of SCM19A's. I had been asking for this for long time since I wanted to hear them against my passive 40's. Well I was the first client to audition 19A's and I ended up having them for three weeks at my apartment. Very good speaker but different sound signature compared to 40's. It's brighter and leaner sounding and superbly neutral. I had many dac-preamps in demo on those three weeks, including Naim 272, PSAudio DirectStream, E.A.R DAC4 and Metrum Acoustis Jade. Metrum and PSAudio were the best of the bunch and PSAudio with slight edge over Metrum, but it also costs twice as much. I felt that 272 with TeddyXPS didn't offer what I wanted, it left me cold and didn't have that emotional connection which Naim DAC + SN2 offered with passive 40's.
Anyway, already after one week, I was convinced that active route is the one to take. Even with 19A vs passive 40's, it was obvious that actives offer much greater grip, dynamics, control and speed over the passives. Integrated amplifier modules tailor made for each element.. how can you surpass this with passive drive? I think you can't. But I felt 19A lacked that final reach in the bottom end, that was only area where passive 40's outperformed them. So I made risky choice to go for 40A's without auditioning them. What could go wrong? I had listened to passive version for four years and loved them.
Well the active 40's arrived after ~two weeks in matte black finish. It looks stunning btw, much better than in the pics. I felt like a little boy in Christmas eve when they arrived. Quickly connected them to Metrum Jade and fired them up. Everything sounded great but what surprised me was the increase in power. They simply sounded much more powerful and dynamic compared to passives. Also the low end was much more powerful.. still in great control as it was with the passives but there was just more of it. My room was at it limits here. Bass became just slightly overpowering, not much but still too much. After one evening of demo I thought if I had made the biggest mistake ever, and very expensive one. Well I really got lucky after this.
There happened to be Linn Akurate DSM with the latest Katalyst board for sale on our local hifi forum. 4,5 years warranty left after Katalyst upgrade, mint condition and all. Why I suddenly was interested on Linn, after ~ten years with Naim? Well Linn has this thing called space optimisation, their version of room correction. The seller came by my apartment next day and we fiddled with the ADSM for six straight hours. After we adjusted the space optimisation parameters, we got great results even after the first try. Bass wasn't overpowering anymore but I still had all the great qualities of active speakers intact. I've fiddled with SO very much after that and now have found perfect parameters for it.
All in all, I'm extremely happy now. My current one box + active speakers setup is on completely different level than my old five box + passive speakers setup. More revealing, dynamic, totally on different level with power, speed and control. Resolution, details and airiness, I hear so much more now. SCM40A, highly recommended. The passive version is still extremely good but needs power! I compared it with few well respected speakers (like Spendor D7 and PMC 25.26) during the four years I had them and always wanted to stay with the 40's. My passive version in black ash, mint condition, is still for sale if interested btw.
Then recently our local dealer decided to finally buy demo pair of SCM19A's. I had been asking for this for long time since I wanted to hear them against my passive 40's. Well I was the first client to audition 19A's and I ended up having them for three weeks at my apartment. Very good speaker but different sound signature compared to 40's. It's brighter and leaner sounding and superbly neutral. I had many dac-preamps in demo on those three weeks, including Naim 272, PSAudio DirectStream, E.A.R DAC4 and Metrum Acoustis Jade. Metrum and PSAudio were the best of the bunch and PSAudio with slight edge over Metrum, but it also costs twice as much. I felt that 272 with TeddyXPS didn't offer what I wanted, it left me cold and didn't have that emotional connection which Naim DAC + SN2 offered with passive 40's.
Anyway, already after one week, I was convinced that active route is the one to take. Even with 19A vs passive 40's, it was obvious that actives offer much greater grip, dynamics, control and speed over the passives. Integrated amplifier modules tailor made for each element.. how can you surpass this with passive drive? I think you can't. But I felt 19A lacked that final reach in the bottom end, that was only area where passive 40's outperformed them. So I made risky choice to go for 40A's without auditioning them. What could go wrong? I had listened to passive version for four years and loved them.
Well the active 40's arrived after ~two weeks in matte black finish. It looks stunning btw, much better than in the pics. I felt like a little boy in Christmas eve when they arrived. Quickly connected them to Metrum Jade and fired them up. Everything sounded great but what surprised me was the increase in power. They simply sounded much more powerful and dynamic compared to passives. Also the low end was much more powerful.. still in great control as it was with the passives but there was just more of it. My room was at it limits here. Bass became just slightly overpowering, not much but still too much. After one evening of demo I thought if I had made the biggest mistake ever, and very expensive one. Well I really got lucky after this.
There happened to be Linn Akurate DSM with the latest Katalyst board for sale on our local hifi forum. 4,5 years warranty left after Katalyst upgrade, mint condition and all. Why I suddenly was interested on Linn, after ~ten years with Naim? Well Linn has this thing called space optimisation, their version of room correction. The seller came by my apartment next day and we fiddled with the ADSM for six straight hours. After we adjusted the space optimisation parameters, we got great results even after the first try. Bass wasn't overpowering anymore but I still had all the great qualities of active speakers intact. I've fiddled with SO very much after that and now have found perfect parameters for it.
All in all, I'm extremely happy now. My current one box + active speakers setup is on completely different level than my old five box + passive speakers setup. More revealing, dynamic, totally on different level with power, speed and control. Resolution, details and airiness, I hear so much more now. SCM40A, highly recommended. The passive version is still extremely good but needs power! I compared it with few well respected speakers (like Spendor D7 and PMC 25.26) during the four years I had them and always wanted to stay with the 40's. My passive version in black ash, mint condition, is still for sale if interested btw.
From ATC’s brochure, by Billy Woodman ..
The benefits of Active over Passive loudspeaker systems
The performance benefits of active over passive loudspeakers is substantial. Even a system, which incorporates the best available stand-alone power amplifier, will never achieve the performance of a similar active system. There are very good engineering reasons why this is true and the following brief will introduce some of the issues.
1. The magnitude of the frequency response of both active and passive loudspeakers can be controlled, with good design, to be within 1dB of one another. However, the phase component of the frequency response will always be better in an active system. The active filters produce better filter roll-off characteristics at crossover. Combine this with the inclusion of a variable all-pass filter at each crossover point to correct the phase response of the drive units through the crossover regions and the result is
a loudspeaker with much better group delay characteristics.
The benefit to the listener will be improved polar response and therefore radiated power response. Such an active loudspeaker will, therefore, have a large stable sound field with stable imaging and source location not possible with a passive loudspeaker.
2. A passive crossover will only operate correctly into the load impedance of a particular loudspeaker drive unit. However, the impedance of a loudspeaker drive unit will change with the amount of power input.This is because loudspeakers are very inefficient and most of the input power is dissipated as heat in the voice coil. As a result the temperature of the voice coil will rise and, because copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance, the impedance of the loudspeaker drive unit will rise.The result will be frequency response errors as the filters
move from their designed response with increased input power. This effect does not occur in active loudspeakers where the filter response is maintained independent of input power to the loudspeaker.
3. Because the amplifiers in an active loudspeaker system are only required to operate over reduced frequency bands the intermodulation distortion products present in a passive system will be dramatically reduced, by typically 20dB, in an
active system.
4. In an active system the absence of a passive crossover and long cable runs together with a known amplifier damping factor prevents the modification of the loudspeaker drive unit “Q” ensuring better controlled low frequency performance.
5. For a given amount of amplifier power an active loud- speaker can be expected to produce approximately 6dB more level than the equivalent passive system. Furthermore, powers may be more optimally specified in an active system. A tweeter, for example, requires much less power than a woofer to produce a balanced system performance.
http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC CORP BROCHURE.pdf
The benefits of Active over Passive loudspeaker systems
The performance benefits of active over passive loudspeakers is substantial. Even a system, which incorporates the best available stand-alone power amplifier, will never achieve the performance of a similar active system. There are very good engineering reasons why this is true and the following brief will introduce some of the issues.
1. The magnitude of the frequency response of both active and passive loudspeakers can be controlled, with good design, to be within 1dB of one another. However, the phase component of the frequency response will always be better in an active system. The active filters produce better filter roll-off characteristics at crossover. Combine this with the inclusion of a variable all-pass filter at each crossover point to correct the phase response of the drive units through the crossover regions and the result is
a loudspeaker with much better group delay characteristics.
The benefit to the listener will be improved polar response and therefore radiated power response. Such an active loudspeaker will, therefore, have a large stable sound field with stable imaging and source location not possible with a passive loudspeaker.
2. A passive crossover will only operate correctly into the load impedance of a particular loudspeaker drive unit. However, the impedance of a loudspeaker drive unit will change with the amount of power input.This is because loudspeakers are very inefficient and most of the input power is dissipated as heat in the voice coil. As a result the temperature of the voice coil will rise and, because copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance, the impedance of the loudspeaker drive unit will rise.The result will be frequency response errors as the filters
move from their designed response with increased input power. This effect does not occur in active loudspeakers where the filter response is maintained independent of input power to the loudspeaker.
3. Because the amplifiers in an active loudspeaker system are only required to operate over reduced frequency bands the intermodulation distortion products present in a passive system will be dramatically reduced, by typically 20dB, in an
active system.
4. In an active system the absence of a passive crossover and long cable runs together with a known amplifier damping factor prevents the modification of the loudspeaker drive unit “Q” ensuring better controlled low frequency performance.
5. For a given amount of amplifier power an active loud- speaker can be expected to produce approximately 6dB more level than the equivalent passive system. Furthermore, powers may be more optimally specified in an active system. A tweeter, for example, requires much less power than a woofer to produce a balanced system performance.
http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC CORP BROCHURE.pdf
Romulus
pfm Member
With the subject of ATC the discussions invariably comes down to passive and active speakers, and most opinions will side on the active speaker for better SQ, however that is subject strictly to the individuals opinion and finances. I have heard the ATCscm40 passive speakers and liked them a lot, but my finances do not stretch as far as I would like. So my aproach would be what are the advantages of the SCM40A SQ over the ATC SCM40 passive SQ and if there are any advantages are they worth proprtionally to the extra cost. Is the difference worth it?
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
When the SCM-40 passive was first released I was lucky enough to get a home demo from an excellent dealer (I own a lot of quite unique equipment). I was already familiar with the ATC sound and I was not disappointed. In stark contrast to the Naim (for example) belief that the drive unit quality matters less than the implementation, ATC are all about driver (speaker) quality. However, whilst I have always thought their dome midrange drivers very good indeed, it is really ATC bass and upper bass/lower mid that has been the strongest suit. When I tried the SCM-40 the tweeter was the ‘off the shelf’ soft dome that they had used for many years and I found it inoffensive but painfully lacking in dynamism or real insight (tonal differentiation)- obviously lagging behind the mid and bass 
. Ultimately, and this is true of all ATC speakers using their dome mid range, I found the mid a bit over damped and lacking the last nuance of dynamic and inflection. On the contra-side this mid unit is very smooth, integrates well and is tonally very even.... but ultimately, it is a trifle ‘flat’ sounding - compressing and flattening the dynamic envelope. Everything has its place and there is a clear place for everything but, ultimately, there is a regimentary quality that overrides the final instance of genuine fluency and openness.
. Ultimately, and this is true of all ATC speakers using their dome mid range, I found the mid a bit over damped and lacking the last nuance of dynamic and inflection. On the contra-side this mid unit is very smooth, integrates well and is tonally very even.... but ultimately, it is a trifle ‘flat’ sounding - compressing and flattening the dynamic envelope. Everything has its place and there is a clear place for everything but, ultimately, there is a regimentary quality that overrides the final instance of genuine fluency and openness.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
The new in house made tweeters are streets ahead of the off the shelf ones that they used to use. The treble is now one of the really strong aspects of the current range.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Wel
Well I was careful not to mention the (very long awaited) new tweeter as I have not heard it directly (except at subsequent shows). Perhaps the new tweeter has imbued the mid with a vibrancy not previously present. However, from my subjective experience the new tweeter extends the subjective ‘feel’ in a much more linear manner but doesn’t, ultimately, release the dome-mid from the slightly ‘shut in’ quality it exhibits.
Well I was careful not to mention the (very long awaited) new tweeter as I have not heard it directly (except at subsequent shows). Perhaps the new tweeter has imbued the mid with a vibrancy not previously present. However, from my subjective experience the new tweeter extends the subjective ‘feel’ in a much more linear manner but doesn’t, ultimately, release the dome-mid from the slightly ‘shut in’ quality it exhibits.