turntables with 12" arms that don't cost a fortune?

[louballoo]

There are a few things in life money can't buy, but it certainly can get you a longer tone arm if you choose. Its quite satisfying just to think of dragging it across the vinyl while friends and admirers .............. well, perhaps I'd best move on to another thread.

Louballoo

 

[Ptah]

You get some of the advantages of a longer arm, without the disadvantages, with the 10in variants. The Project Xtension 10 sounded great to me at the Bristol show and is a bit of a steal at £2300.
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=xtension10&lang=en

 

[LPSpinner]

On the merits of 12-inch arms Vs. 9 inch arms. Have a read of this …

… Reducing all of the numbers to something easily understandable, and using the Baerwald alignment, the tracking error of a nominal 9” tone arm (229.7mm effective length) produces levels of harmonic distortion that max out at around 0.65% over about 25% of the groove surface, this rising to about 0.8% for the innermost grooves. The tracking error of a nominal 12” arm (effective length 309mm) produces harmonic distortion that maxes out at around 0.46% over the same 25% of the groove surface, and at about 0.5% for the innermost grooves. That’s it: 0.65% and 0.8% vs. 0.46% and 0.5%, and those percentages hold true with precise alignment. Setup errors with a longer tone arm will be magnified, potentially narrowing the gap even more…

Taken from http://www.analogplanet.com/content/sme-model-2012-turntable-amp-312s-tonearm-page-2

Based on the information quoted above, comparing the amount of distortion caused by tracking error of a 9-inch arm (using Baerwald alignment) compared with a 12-inch arm we see a maximum difference of 0.3% (0.8% for a 9 inch and 0.5% for the 12 inch, 0.8%-0. 5% = 0.3%) in the worst case scenario. A more typical number is likely to be 0.19% variation (0.65%-0.46%).

In Conclusion, the changing the arm length to 12-inch appears to be almost irrelevant when compared to all the other distortions generated by the record playing system. An interesting side observation stated by Mr Fremmer Is “Setup errors with a longer tone arm will be magnified, potentially narrowing the gap even more.”

My conclusion on this is that any difference in sound between the two will not be a result of improved tracking error. It is more likely to be a result of different bending moments within the longer arm tube or a result of variations in the cartridge compliance / arm mass interaction.

Does that mean I don’t like 12-inch arms; Hell No . 12-inch arms look way cool and If ever a good clean 12 inch SME Series II came up for a local sale I would be on it in a flash, Both the Jelco and the Ortofon 12 inch arms are also real lookers and would wear an Ortofon SPU real sweet, but they don’t come cheap. Also, If I was starting out in vinyl today the two decks by Pro-Ject I pointed out before would probably be at the top of my most desirable but realistically priced decks, The Ortofon arm also has a wonderfully Retro look which greatly appeals to my eye.

LPSPinner

 

[paskinn]

Fremer can't tell you anything useful about this; you have to listen for yourself. No amount of slightly dodgy theory seems to fully explain the effect. But every 12 inch arm I have heard (somewhere around a dozen) has had a similar character...a smoother, sweeter, sound than the 9 inch version. I'd never go back to the shorter arms.
There is however, another way of looking at this; for a given amount of money, would you get a better result by buying a normal 9 inch deck, given that more money can go into it.
That is a complicated question , especially as modern big decks are quite rare. So you have less choice. A good deck with a good unipivot is probably the nearest you will get to the sweeter, more relaxed, sound of a 12 inch arm.

 

[Coda II]

i'm probably barking up the wrong tree asking about the 12" arm, though the answers have been interesting and I'm still interested in hearing more options.

I suppose the question should have been: I can't afford a Shindo 301. What's closer to the price of a RP10?

Spacedeck + get in touch with Audio Origami = in budget and no desire to change (ever)

 

[stevec67]

A Spacedeck as above or a restored Lenco/401 will come in within budget and sound great.

 

[LPSpinner]

Fremer can't tell you anything useful about this; you have to listen for yourself. No amount of slightly dodgy theory seems to fully explain the effect. But every 12 inch arm I have heard (somewhere around a dozen) has had a similar character...a smoother, sweeter, sound than the 9 inch version. I'd never go back to the shorter arms.
There is however, another way of looking at this; for a given amount of money, would you get a better result by buying a normal 9 inch deck, given that more money can go into it.
That is a complicated question , especially as modern big decks are quite rare. So you have less choice. A good deck with a good unipivot is probably the nearest you will get to the sweeter, more relaxed, sound of a 12 inch arm.

On this point Mr. Fremmer is 100% correct, its hard and fast mathematics that calculates the amount of distortion generated by cartridge misalignment. I chose to use this example because it was the easiest example to link to. I don’t have the inclination to fully explain the mathematics behind it but a quick search with Google will have any number of pages with fully developed mathematics and diagrams.

Please read what I posted a little more carefully; I’m not disputing the fact that a12-inch arm will sound different from a 9-inch arm of comparable design. I’m just saying that the difference is not a direct result of improved tracking that the longer arm geometry gives you. There are many factors at play and you also need to consider whether the differences are improvements or just differences.


LPSpinner

 

[sazalirazak]

Very informative thread thanks. I have the project xtension 9 for almost a year now absolutely love it..

For a 2nd deck looking at getting a jelco 12inch for about £400 of eBay which I think is the most affordable 12inch arms currently available. This will go onto my classic lenco l76s which will get a ptp5 treatment soon


http://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/products/tonearm.html

 

[pt109]

I replaced my SME V with this.
12" version retails for 2300$ in Canada...
http://www.acoustic-signature.com/index.php?article_id=59&clang=1

 

[Groover]

How about the Avid Ingenium?

http://www.avidhifi.co.uk/turntable_ingenium.htm

Get one with a 9 and 12" arm, problem solved!

 

[Mike Reed]

On this point Mr. Fremmer is 100% correct, its hard and fast mathematics that calculates the amount of distortion generated by cartridge misalignment.


LPSpinner

In percentage terms, there's not a lot in it, but every little helps. I'm surprised that the author of that article you posted doesn't know the difference between TRACKING error and TRACING error.

Unless I've been misinformed for a few decades, TRACKING involves the ability of a cart. to keep proper contact with the groove. TRACING error is the deviation from the optimum cutting head angle; i.e. it traces an arc, not tracks it. Maybe terminology has mutated over time, but to me they're different animals.

12" arms, by repute (and Paskinn's reports) do give a different presentation to their 9" or even 10" peers. This is also my observation, but based upon much less experience than Peter's. Besides, not that many decks (and very few suspended ones) can take 12" arms, so it's not a simple choice of 'shall I or shall I not?'.

 

[Coda II]

Besides, not that many decks (and very few suspended ones) can take 12" arms, so it's not a simple choice of 'shall I or shall I not?'.

I think this is something that Notts Analogue don't make enough of.

I have used an RB250, unipivots from Hadcock and Mørch and now a 12" PU7, all accommodated with readily available parts. ie. I call NA, say I want to use this arm on my deck, they say that's fine we'll send you the bits required (for a fee).

 

[paskinn]

It's a rather obvious point, but in the end, you have to listen and judge for yourself. As always, the question for most people is, 'how'? There are dealers able to demo 9 an 12 inch arms from the same manufacturer. But not many!
I just don't know the answer, it's always a risky business to buy without hearing, it's just not safe. If you happen to like SME arms, see if a dealer is willing to demo the difference; but only, out of fairness, if there is some chance of buying one. Maybe stockists of Jelco, or other makes, would be willing to do the same. You can only trust your own ears, not those of the rest of us.
Otherwise, we wouldn't need to listen before choosing, we could just do what we are told (fat chance!)

 

[Fulci]

Avid Ingenium with a Jelco maybe?

 

[jamesd]

that Avid with it's arm floating in space with no plinth beneath seems scary

 

[Mike Reed]

I think this is something that Notts Analogue don't make enough of.

N. A. don't even have a web-site, although they're not alone in small cottage hifi industries. Can't say I've seen an ad. in the mag's, either.

Seems they keep going by the v.f.m. and service that they offer, together with the reputation of their wares, well known among the hifi fraternity and dealers.

 

[paskinn]

I today saw a deck (Polish) with a 16inch arm. Any advances on that?

 

[sls4321]

Yep, I'd agree with that. It's finding a 12" arm that don't cost a fortune that's the biggest challenge. I'd be interested to see some answers.

Jelco 750L, Origin Live Alliance or if you want to spend a bit more, Origin Live Silver.

Personally, I have a deck with both a 12" 750L and a 12" Origin Live Illustrious. The 750L is a perfectly decent arm and has the advantage of changeable headshell. I switch between a cheap Goldring mm and a 2M mono cartridge.

 

[hifi_dave]

N. A. don't even have a web-site, although they're not alone in small cottage hifi industries. Can't say I've seen an ad. in the mag's, either.

Seems they keep going by the v.f.m. and service that they offer, together with the reputation of their wares, well known among the hifi fraternity and dealers.

The majority of their output goes to export.

 

[stevec67]

I today saw a deck (Polish) with a 16inch arm. Any advances on that?

Sometime around 2000 I saw a Platine Verdier with tonearm on a separate plinth, it must have been 2ft long. Sounded great even in a poor room at a show.