Tory leadership failure Part V: Rishi ‘Infosys’ Sunak

[Seanm]

The problem is that while the vast majority of people don’t have a problem with trans rights, more or less the whole of the UK’s mainstream media class do: there’s a strategic alliance in effect between tabloid bigots, respectable right wing broadsheet bigots and Sensible centrist bigots and together they are working very hard to make this an issue. Good example here: Nick Ferrari and the Observer’s Sonia Sodha on GMTV - very well balanced, in that we get both the right wing and liberal transphobic positions.

https://twitter.com/cowinthenorth/status/1615326512810688512?s=46&t=VV9nEB2Mjk1biWFs-XuGuA

These people define what is and isn’t acceptable opinion in the U.K. so it’s very dangerous when they’re on the same page like this, especially when they have a victimised minority in their sights.

 

[flatpopely]

We now understand gender to be separate from sex, and somewhat more fluid as a concept.

Some things are segregated by sex (toilets, changing rooms, prisons) for practical reasons, usually around individual safety and security. So it's not clear to me why we can't, officially, recognise gender differently to sex, but maintain the segregation on sex grounds where there are valid reasons for doing so. So, say, somebody of male sex who self-identifies as female in gender would not be permitted to use female lavatories or changing rooms, because that's about sex, not gender.

What a well considered post and one I agree with 100%.

 

[Tony L]

These people define what is and isn’t acceptable opinion in the U.K. so it’s very dangerous when they’re on the same page like this, especially when they have a victimised minority in their sights.

Also factor $billions being pumped into the US Republican party by an extremist white supremacist and highly socially conservative and homophobic Christian fundamentalist movement. I view this very much as a global thing. The UK Conservative Party is just hanging on the coattails of an increasingly fascist American right. Labour will be little help, one of their major millionaire donors was outspoken TERF-activist JK Rowling. I don’t know if they are still accepting money from her given her recent behaviour towards marginalised trans folk, but I’d certainly not put it past them. We can add Elon Musk into the picture too, another person using exceptional wealth and power as a tool to attack a highly vulnerable minority.

 

[paulfromcamden]

somebody of male sex who self-identifies as female in gender would not be permitted to use female lavatories

You would have told EJ Osbourne (RIP) to use the women's toilet?

 

[paulfromcamden]

@Sue Pertwee-Tyr and I honestly don't mean that as a pop at you. I'm just trying to show that this isn't an academic exercise that can be fudged. Trans people deserve to be able to conduct their lives with dignity. And forcing someone who presents as female to go for a wazz in the gents isn't compatible with that.

 

[eternumviti]

This.

I'm old enough to remember the demonisation of homosexual techers as potential paedos when Thatcher was pushing Section 28.

New millennium, same old bullshit.

I'm old enough to remember homosexual teachers who were predatory paedophiles. Perhaps I'm older than you.

 

[droodzilla]

The argument is about numbers and salience.

 

[Tony L]

I'm old enough to remember homosexual teachers who were predatory paedophiles. Perhaps I'm older than you.

Predatory pedophiles will always find their way into positions where they have easy prey; private boarding schools, the church, care homes, scouting, sport etc. Anywhere with access to children. If you are attempting to make a point other than that you will very rapidly find pfm is not a site you can post on.

 

[DonQuixote99]

I'm old enough to remember homosexual teachers who were predatory paedophiles. Perhaps I'm older than you.

The idea of course is to go after predatory paedophiles, not homosexuals.

 

[laughingboy]

The extremism is all from the side that is trying to isolate and marginalise a tiny minority of highly vulnerable people. A group who are currently facing an existential threat in many parts of the world. Please watch the video I linked to. It may help you understand what is actually happening here. Once you have watched that I can provide many, many more.

Jamie Lee Curtis has a trans daughter. She also links transphobic hate with fascism. She sets it out in 1 minute.

 

[Mystic Mac]

I'm old enough to remember homosexual teachers who were predatory paedophiles. Perhaps I'm older than you.

Subtle bigotry.

 

[Tony L]

Jamie Lee Curtis has a trans daughter. She also links transphobic hate with fascism. She sets it out in 1 minute.

The more you look into it the more impossible it is not to make that link. I honestly never thought I’d be using the ‘f word’ in my lifetime having been born less than 20 years from the Nazi death camps being in full swing. I thought we were done with that shit for good, but the rhetoric and actions that led to that darkness are all around us once again. It is so obvious where we are and what lies ahead if we do not immediately change course. The evidence is simply overwhelming.

I started a dedicated thread recently on the Ken Burns USA And The Holocaust as it is absolutely essential viewing. I urge everyone to watch it as the alarm bells are now deafening. Since then we have seen footage of a UK Home Secretary refusing to apologise to an actual holocaust survivor for using demonisation and dehumanisation language her party has lifted directly from Josef Goebbels in the 1930s. We are where we are. It is time to call fascists fascists. It is the correct word used in its correct context.

PS Jamie Lee Curtis has a lot of sense to say about many things, I’ve been following her on Twitter for a while.

 

[eternumviti]

Predatory pedophiles will always find their way into positions where they have easy prey; private boarding schools, the church, care homes, scouting, sport etc. Anywhere with access to children. If you are attempting to make a point other than that you will very rapidly find pfm is not a site you can post on.

Mmm. Amazing how quickly and easily the pockmarked wall can hove into view.

Actually, I wasn't, merely making an observation. Section 28 was repealed 20 odd years ago. One of the reasons that predatory paedophiles thrived in the institutions that you so kindly listed was lack of education, not too much of it. I speak from experience, having attended one such institution as a completely naive child (from the age of 7) in the dark days of the 1960s and 70s.

Anyway, where were we? Apologies for the distraction, carry on.

 

[Ted-M]

Good example here: Nick Ferrari and the Observer’s Sonia Sodha on GMTV - very well balanced, in that we get both the right wing and liberal transphobic positions.
https://twitter.com/cowinthenorth/status/1615326512810688512?s=46&t=VV9nEB2Mjk1biWFs-XuGuA
These people define what is and isn’t acceptable opinion in the U.K. so it’s very dangerous when they’re on the same page like this, especially when they have a victimised minority in their sights.

But that clip shows her explicitly stating 'this isn't about trans people it's about men who abuse women' going on to describe her concerns - about non-trans men.

 

[TheDecameron]

Dougie Smith and his wife Munira Mirza are as far as I can tell basically the culture wars dept of government (let’s not forget her ‘there’s no such thing as institutional racism’ stance and her roundly condemned report commissioned by Johnson in response to BLM).

There’s a very interesting investigation by Tortoise Media on them (the link is to an audio version but a transcript exists too if you search).

The Mickey taking because of Smith’s previous career is a perilous distraction from how malign an influence he exerts on government now.

He’s also the mover behind public moralist Kemi Badenoch. The Mirror exposed him inc pics of his swingers club. His response was there was no overlap with his job at Downing St and running his sticky carpets establishment.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-hands-number-10-21683722

Don’t think Boris n Carrie would approve of the decor.

it’s a rerun of the demise of the Major government. They were preaching Victorian values while mired in sleaze- now it’s even worse- hands in the till, compulsive groping and far more serious offending and partying while no one else was allowed.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

@Sue Pertwee-Tyr and I honestly don't mean that as a pop at you. I'm just trying to show that this isn't an academic exercise that can be fudged. Trans people deserve to be able to conduct their lives with dignity. And forcing someone who presents as female to go for a wazz in the gents isn't compatible with that.

No problem, and thank you. Some of the other replies to my post make it clear that it's not as straightforward as I might have supposed. I haven't yet had the time to follow the links and watch the clips linked, but I will do so. TBH, given how toxic this subject has been in the media, I need to be better informed but had been reluctant to dip in because I'm not sure where the reliable sources are. So now I have some.

 

[Seeker_UK]

No problem, and thank you. Some of the other replies to my post make it clear that it's not as straightforward as I might have supposed. I haven't yet had the time to follow the links and watch the clips linked, but I will do so. TBH, given how toxic this subject has been in the media, I need to be better informed but had been reluctant to dip in because I'm not sure where the reliable sources are. So now I have some.

Speaking personally, as someone for whom this was outside of a lot of my Weltanschauung, the mix of new words to understand and the ease in which you can get stuck in a discussion which rapidly turns a bit nasty, makes it difficult and discouraging participation in the debate. I am sure I am not alone and why many who probably support trans rights, keep the hell out of it all.

 

[Seanm]

But that clip shows her explicitly stating 'this isn't about trans people it's about men who abuse women' going on to describe her concerns - about non-trans men.

Standard trope, at the centre of transphobic discourse: of course it's about trans people, the issue is trans rights. Linking trans rights to violence against women is transphobic, in the same way as linking homosexuality to pedophilia is homophobic.

 

[Andrewxyz]

I doubt if Boris would be taking much notice of the decor in a swingers club.... Have I been reading too much Le Carre or does that establishment sound like a perfect blackmail set up ? London's movers & shakers getting down & dirty.

 

[mandryka]

But that clip shows her explicitly stating 'this isn't about trans people it's about men who abuse women' going on to describe her concerns - about non-trans men.

Correct. What she says is that in Scotland it will be much harder to challenge a man who declares himself a female in order to look at women in a changing room. I think she's right, I think there are people who will do it, libido is powerful. And I think women's concerns about this are valid.

I'm not sure it's such a big concern though -- I mean, it may be that the genuine trans people suffer so much because they have to get medical certification that their suffering outweighs women's anxieties.

A bit of common sense here - maybe Scotland's system errs on the side of laxness and England's errs on the side of rigour. There must be a middle way.