The Tory leadership race- that’s quite a bestiary there.

[Brian]

Indeed Steve. Just to add (even though I think you've covered it):
Leave = leave the EU. Multiple options exist though leave supporters have failed to find a consensus. At the moment the most popular appears to be a very hard leave (no withdrawal deal with the EU in place, aka cliff edge in remain terms). Possibly considered as a "clean" Brexit as in a "clean break", no ties. Hard Brexit is no single market, no customs union; soft Brexit is closer to an EEA option. Other options lie in between. Those really interested can google the different forms. Bottom line - clear distinctions over the type of Brexit, leave voters unable to decide collectively what they want.
Remain = remain in the EU. No different remain options are in place that could constitute significantly different options. No concept of a "hard remain" or "soft remain". The term "hard remainer" has been dreamed up by leavers who want to portray the remain side as being as confused as they are (which is of course untrue).
The attempt to make an equivalence of terms "hard" and "soft" for both leave and remain is, to my mind, deeply odious.

In your opinion, not fact.

What is really deeply odious is that some people believe it is acceptable to ignore the outcome of democratic referendum. A label is useful for such people.

 

[rbrown]

Actually Brexit has made it much more likely that no other country will be so stupid in future. The EU will remain intact.

Fully agree. Our example will be one that no one would be wise to follow.

 

[Brian]

^^ 'will be able to work overseas post-brexit' is entirely different from having the legal right to live/work/retire anywhere in the EU.
In practise there will be many less Brits in Europe post-Brexit.

You may be right, you may be wrong.

I would like to think if you live and are working in another EU country, therefore contributing to that county and later want to retire there, you would be able to do so. Are you saying they would kick you out?

 

[russel]

I'm sure many "average" UK citizens will be able to work overseas post-brexit.

If you do not have a free movement agreement then any company in Europe that wants to employ someone from the UK will have to prove that there are no suitable applicants from Europe, similarly UK companies will have to do the same, any one wishing to invest may well consider a pool of Europe offers a better chance of skilled employees than the UKs.

 

[wyjsar]

In your opinion, not fact.

What is really deeply odious is that some people believe it is acceptable to ignore the outcome of democratic referendum. A label is useful for such people.

That label is "remainer". No need to artificially create different flavours where none exist.

 

[Brian]

If you do not have a free movement agreement then any company in Europe that wants to employ someone from the UK will have to prove that there are no suitable applicants from Europe, similarly UK companies will have to do the same, any one wishing to invest may well consider a pool of Europe offers a better chance of skilled employees than the UKs.

So EU member countries would have to refuse possibly the best person for a job based on where they come from? Bit daft, imo.

 

[Brian]

That label is "remainer". No need to artificially create different flavours where none exist.

In your opinion. Others have a different opinion.

It is very important to differentiate between the remainer who acknowledges a democratic referendum and the hard-remainer who wishes to ignore the outcome of a democratic vote. You've taken a position different to the majority of remain voters, no need to feel ashamed.

 

[stephen bennett]

In your opinion, not fact.

What is really deeply odious is that some people believe it is acceptable to ignore the outcome of democratic referendum. A label is useful for such people.

Some of us think that implementing an advisory referendum that the bill itself says we have no mechanism for implementing and that we know will cause untold harm Is equally odious.

Stephen

 

[wyjsar]

In your opinion. Others have a different opinion.

It is very important to differentiate between the remainer who acknowledges a democratic referendum and the hard-remainer who wishes to ignore the outcome of a democratic vote. You've taken a position different to the majority of remain voters, no need to feel ashamed.

Why is it very important to differentiate? Like many remainers I'd like to see that people are aware of the full facts of a leave. If we have to leave (and it appears that we will) so be it. I'm not ignoring the outcome of the referendum.
You support Labour. They didn't win the last election but you encourage people on these pages to support them. It was a democratic vote that saw them lose last time. You still have an opinion about it, just as I do over Brexit.
Who's ashamed? Certainly not me. What motivates you to be so snide and insulting in your posts? Why, exactly, do you feel you need to make something up about my state of mind? It doesn't help you try to make any point. Read the AUP, try to bat the ball and not the poster (in this case failing completely).

 

[stephen bennett]

So aim your anger at the people who set it all in motion and help to get rid of them. The tories did it to save their party. Whether it will save their party is in the balance and I obviously hope it doesn't, but that's why we are where we are.

A couple more points.
I'm sure many "average" UK citizens will be able to work overseas post-brexit.
I'm not seeing your point about prominent brexiteers mostly being wealthy. I believe most of the prominent remainers are also wealthy.

The point is that wealthy leavers can still live in the EU easily post-Brexit.

Wealthy (indeed all) remainers would like everyone to have the same opportunity.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to pay for health, holiday and sick pay? It depends on what you mean by average I guess. I certainly couldn’t afford it as a freelancer.

I do blame the Tories. I also blame all those who voted leave and those Labour Party MPs who voted for article 50 without a plan.

Stephen

 

[russel]

So EU member countries would have to refuse possibly the best person for a job based on where they come from? Bit daft, imo.

It will hurt Britain more than it will hurt the eu, we need their talent pool more than they need ours.

 

[wacko]

So EU member countries would have to refuse possibly the best person for a job based on where they come from? Bit daft, imo.

Brian you are an intelligent logical careful person but you just can't see the wood for the trees. Do you have your own personal opinion of what the EU is ?

 

[Seanm]

That label is "remainer". No need to artificially create different flavours where none exist.

I would prefer to remain, and will work towards that if the only alternative is no deal; in other scenarios I'm conflicted, and reluctant to simply erase the result of a referendum, however flawed it was; and there are certainly conditions under which I would accept we leave. Is this a remain position?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

What is really deeply odious is that some people believe it is acceptable to ignore the outcome of democratic referendum. A label is useful for such people.

I don’t think anybody is ‘ignoring’ the outcome of the referendum. Rather, I’d say people are, by and large, according it due deference, but not feeling hidebound by dogma to elevate it to something quite as totemic as Leavers might wish them to.

I would like to think if you live and are working in another EU country, therefore contributing to that county and later want to retire there, you would be able to do so. Are you saying they would kick you out?

You might like to think that, as might I, but I imagine there might be an expectation of some form of reciprocity. Do you honestly believe that the UK, in its current form, would not seek to kick out unproductive foreign nationals, because it seems to me that is exactly what this current lot have been moving towards for almost 10 years now.

 

[wyjsar]

I would prefer to remain, and will work towards that if the only alternative is no deal; in other scenarios I'm conflicted, and reluctant to simply erase the result of a referendum, however flawed it was; and there are certainly conditions under which I would accept we leave. Is this a remain position?

Yes Sean - it isn't that often that we're in agreement but I can go along with that.

 

[ff1d1l]

majority of remain voters

Source? Numbers?


Bulshit?

 

[maxflinn]

Don't know if anyone has already posted this...

Michael Gove rap:

 

[SteveS1]

I would prefer to remain, and will work towards that if the only alternative is no deal; in other scenarios I'm conflicted, and reluctant to simply erase the result of a referendum, however flawed it was; and there are certainly conditions under which I would accept we leave. Is this a remain position?

Glad you are so 'conflicted'. If Remain is a 'hard' position, then guilty. Although I personally don't see how not wanting the UK seriously reduced economically and politically is all that radical but there we are. Coming to terms with the UK's post imperial significance is something that has to be got over and that is painful for some on the right, less so I would have thought on the left.

Remain = not good, because Cameron's hubris has paralysed the UK for 3 years and counting, plus many people were persuaded that a good deal it would be easy, we held all the cards, they needed us more than us them and similar bollox. Plenty of resentment - but at least we might salvage something.

Soft Brexit = very bad, UK worse off. Resentment all round and you don't even get to please anyone.

Hard Brexit = complete disaster. UK very much worse off, would make austerity look like a tea party. All but a few nutters are unhappy.

 

[Brian]

Some of us think that implementing an advisory referendum that the bill itself says we have no mechanism for implementing and that we know will cause untold harm Is equally odious.

Stephen

Yes, I know you think that way. However, that doesn’t mean it is justifed to ignore a democratic referendum in which a majority voted to leave.

You really should drop the oft-repeated “advisory” complaint. Everyone knows the govt of the day promised very clearly to action the result of the referendum. Even if you can’t accept the result itself, at least accept the tories made that promise. It’s why the turn-out was so high.

 

[Brian]

Why is it very important to differentiate? Like many remainers I'd like to see that people are aware of the full facts of a leave. If we have to leave (and it appears that we will) so be it. I'm not ignoring the outcome of the referendum.
You support Labour. They didn't win the last election but you encourage people on these pages to support them. It was a democratic vote that saw them lose last time. You still have an opinion about it, just as I do over Brexit.
Who's ashamed? Certainly not me. What motivates you to be so snide and insulting in your posts? Why, exactly, do you feel you need to make something up about my state of mind? It doesn't help you try to make any point. Read the AUP, try to bat the ball and not the poster (in this case failing completely).

My position is Labour is realistically the only party that can replace the tories and that is the single most important thing facing the UK today. It frustrates me when people claim to dislike what the tories are doing but will do their very best to help them win the next GE.

It is important to differentiate because remain voters prepared to compromise do not want to be lumped into the same group as people who wish to ignore the referendum. Why would people want to be in that group if they don’t think that way?

I haven’t made up anything about your state of mind, it was more of a question because I’m puzzled over why you are trying so hard to normalise the position of the hard-remainer. Why do you insist all remainers are the same when they clearly are not? Why are you so much against the term ‘hard-remainer”?
Whatever you may think of the referendum, it is not commonplace that we hold these in the UK, they are not taken lightly and when they do happen, the outcome should be honoured, imo.

There is nothing snide in my posts, you just disagree with me, that’s all. Honestly, I can’t think of a single post you ever made in response to me that was in agreement on any subject, so this is all normal as far as I’m concerned. We just disagree on stuff and that’s fine by me.