The magic of small speakers
- Thread starter Snufkin
- Start date
I have of course read the thread from its inception.
Drive units coupled close to the ears, and propagation from a remote speaker in an enclosed room have different behaviours. If say your in ear headphone is 10mm from the ear drum, then the resonant frequency for that distance is about 33kHz, so none of the "small speaker/big speaker/room modes/Schroeder frequency" stuff applies.
Tony was talking about speakers in a room
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
Ive been trying to understand the praise of the ls50 but after a couple of months with my pair, I dont get it. not a fan of ls50 I think. tried with dht tube, class a SS amp, el84 PP tube, nothing really helps. will probably sell my pair eventually. I recommend harbeth or atc 5 inch 2 way models over the 5 inch ls50. both in another league from ls50 ime
Tony L
Administrator
Probably not that many people here running NS1000s or Gale 401s but they'd likely beg to differ over the need for two pairs of speakers ....
I know Gale 401s well and like them a lot, but for me they can do neither the scale and gravitas of a huge 15" Tannoy or JBL studio monitor, nor the totally immersive nearfield teleportation thing of the best mini-monitors. I've less experience with Yams, but again I suspect you'd start to hear the individual drivers if you sat too close. Ironically you can probably get closer to the huge Tannoys due to their being a true point source!
It wasn't until I hooked mine up to my current amp that they came alive. Class D seems to keep them under control much better, I struggled with bass boom previously. Thats strange, a friend brought round his p3ESR and we both preferred the KEF's in my setup. ATC11's are my next to audition.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Tony asserted that you needed a large room for a bass wave to fully develop, which is nonsense.
Keith
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
please dont use class d with harbeth
its not the bass of ls50 that I have a problem with, I simply find the p3esr more musically satisfying, more engaging, ect.
I have both in my room. I still try the ls50. will see with time
I also have scm7 v3. I prefer harbeth. maybe scm11 v2 is better, i dunno
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
up to a point its true, the absolute low bass capability of a room is limited by its dimension. for example, a small room cannot develop 20hz. the room can limit extension to 25 or 30hz for example.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Tony L
Administrator
It certainly isn't! I'm somewhat amazed someone who apparently prefers to communicate via regurgitating partially understood books and lectures rather than trusting their own ears doesn't know this! It is of course somewhat obvious to anyone who has played any bass instrument in a variety of locations of differing size!
PS To put it in simplistic terms; you may well be getting a good impression of weight and the harmonics of a deep note, so you can hear it, but you are not getting the fundamental as the room can't physically hold the wavelength. To put it another way try taking a 12" ruler and putting it into a 4" box. Doesn't fit. If you fold it in three you have three four inch rulers, which are a rather different thing! 20Hz is 17m!
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
I would recommend Floyd Toole's 'Sound Reproduction' Tony.
Keith
Keith
music fiend
life lusting
Can you quote where Toole says that a sound wave can fully develop notwithstanding the room size?
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
id also add, I find the ls50 seem to extend to 50hz, the p3esr to about 70hz. comparing the p3 without a sub to the ls50 will advantage the ls50 vastly. the 50 to 70hz add dimensionality and really extends the soundstage and bass foundation. the p3esr will sound outclassed... but with a sub on both the ls50 and p3esr, I prefer so far the harbeth combination quite easily... for now
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
That's a bit simplistic, Tony. You can absolutely get longer wavelengths going in a smaller room, but they will be reflected back and forth and may cancel or reinforce the original to varying degrees depending on their relative phase. The longest dimension in my room is 6.3m. This might suggest the lowest frequency my room supports is 54Hz. But that is simply untrue. I have measured down to 25Hz using pure tones, and that's limited by my own loudspeakers.
What the room dimensions will limit is evenness of bass response due to nodes, modes and what-nots when the wavelength is longer than the shortest room dimension. In my room I have a ceiling height of 2.7m, which will accommodate the full wavelength of 127Hz. Unsurprisingly, my room response is very even above 125Hz.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Some people just like to collect loudspeakers, even when they have a pair of NS1000Ms or 401s.Probably not that many people here running NS1000s or Gale 401s but they'd likely beg to differ over the need for two pairs of speakers ....
Mr Tibbs
Tony L
Administrator
Just over half the length of the wave is a reasonable compromise, and whilst it isn't as clean as a place that can contain the full wave it does give the impression of it being there. I'd be surprised if you were getting much in the way of the true fundamental though. Much is academic anyway as the lowest note on a bass is 41.5Hz, lowest on a piano is 32Hz, so 8.5m and a good bit longer respectively, i.e. a room half that size will give a reasonable impression.
No. You've deliberately taken him out of context.
To state plainly:
Tony, and this thread, is taking about speakers, in a room
And you're trying to divert it with mock technical understanding, to headphones
If you genuinely wanted to discuss the differences between in ear acoustics and room acoustics then that would be fine. But you diverted a discussion about speakers and rooms using the introduction "Wow".
Would you sensibly like that separate discussion or are you going to continue to muddle the two?
If you understood this as well as you profess or believe, then you would be encouraging everyone to read Floyd Toole's papers on headphone design
Sound reproduction is entitled
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms
Believe it or not Keith, I do like you to have space to quote sensible stuff without seeing responses that are simply shooting the messenger, but making it sensible is up to you
Listening to Sweet Sweet Dreams by Shadow (on Analog Africa, the finest tropical dance music!) on Isobariks. What big speakers do is drive a room. Ok the 'Briks have upwards facing drivers. The low end energy really helps.
I have hear active IBLs drive a room but in a different way. It is more immediacy rather than energy, if you see what I mean.
I was at AIR Lyndhurst for a demo and they were using the little Neumann active monitors. It wasn't about the speakers but it really showed the failings of small speakers in a big room. They were just a sound source rather than making the music sit in the room.
I have hear active IBLs drive a room but in a different way. It is more immediacy rather than energy, if you see what I mean.
I was at AIR Lyndhurst for a demo and they were using the little Neumann active monitors. It wasn't about the speakers but it really showed the failings of small speakers in a big room. They were just a sound source rather than making the music sit in the room.