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Subwoofer Integration - Particularly with Harbeths

R

Robby

pfm Member
I have a pair of Harbeth 30.1's and whilst I really enjoy their sound always feel short changed in the bass department especially considering the size of the enclosures.

I picked up an REL T5i subwoofer yesterday and for about 7 hours I tried to integrate the subwoofer with the speakers and room. I don't think I have spent more time crawling around the floor on my hands and knees since my pre walking days.

No matter what I tried I either ended up with top much bass that I sensed was somewhat out of time with the Harbeth woofer or not enough and I would be up tinkering again trying to get the cross over/volume spother on.

Has anyone used a sub before - especially with Harbeth - and had success to a point where they can sit back and just enjoy the music?

Any thought or advice would be great. Most of what I have read so far is on the assumption that you have acresof space to move the sub incrementally to the right position. Mine is in a normal lounge where realistically I can place it in one or two positions (the starting point in the REL instructions of being in the corner is out of the question as this is where my hifi rack resides).
 
Mini DSP, one of their small processors, and a software 'plug-in' will integrate your subs perfectly, $100 well spent.
Keith
 
When recommending this stuff it is probably wise to mention that you either end up with a delayed bass signal due to the additional signal processing, or have to digitise and delay the feed going to the open and revealing Harbeths. Never a free lunch in audio!
 
The software allows you to adjust delay, phase, crossover slopes, order ,everything and is completely transparent.
It is no longer 1957 .
Keith
 
Robby said:
I have a pair of Harbeth 30.1's and whilst I really enjoy their sound always feel short changed in the bass department especially considering the size of the enclosures.

I picked up an REL T5i subwoofer yesterday and for about 7 hours I tried to integrate the subwoofer with the speakers and room. I don't think I have spent more time crawling around the floor on my hands and knees since my pre walking days.

No matter what I tried I either ended up with top much bass that I sensed was somewhat out of time with the Harbeth woofer or not enough and I would be up tinkering again trying to get the cross over/volume spother on.

Has anyone used a sub before - especially with Harbeth - and had success to a point where they can sit back and just enjoy the music?

Any thought or advice would be great. Most of what I have read so far is on the assumption that you have acresof space to move the sub incrementally to the right position. Mine is in a normal lounge where realistically I can place it in one or two positions (the starting point in the REL instructions of being in the corner is out of the question as this is where my hifi rack resides).
Click to expand...

I once tried to integrate a REL T5 with my MA GX100s and simply couldn't get a good result. I think that the T5 isn't quick/ powerful enough to allow for a good integration unless the room is really small.

I'd recommend you try a better sub. I now use a pair of REL R528SEs and they integrate seamlessly with the main speakers.
 
I'm not familiar with the REL T5i, but I've used M30s and HLP3 ESRs successfully - at least to my ears - with BK subs (XLS200 &, separately, XLS400).

I found I got the best results using room correction with the sub. Some subs have this built in, but in my case I use a separate AntiMode 8033.

With room correction you should get cleaner, tighter bass without exciting room modes, making it easier to level match and integrate the sub with the main speakers.

P.S. just to say I've not noticed any of the problems mentioned by Tony!
 
It seems integrating the sub is as straightforward as the advice you get! (all the opinions are appreciated though).

To be honest I wanted adding a sub to be as simple as possible without additional boxes/software etc.

I will give it another go later today and hopefully will maintain my sanity and get a good position/settings for the sub.
 
When I had the Harbeth SHL5 I tried integrating a PMC TLE1 sub to the speakers. It worked out pretty fine but after a while I removed the sub as I thought it's unnecessary. The excessive problematic bass of the SHL5s may be the main culprit. Reducing the excessive or undesirable mid-bass of the SHL5s may be more useful than adding more deep bass via a subwoofer.

I now have the SHL5 Plus and just recently tried integrating the PMC sub to the speakers. I don't know about the M30.1 but the bass of the SHL5 is quite adequate really. In my opinion the SHL5 Plus does not require a sub even if they are in a large room in free space. Having said that, the sub improved on the bass of the SHL5 Plus (as expected). The changes were subtle but appreciable. You just feel a *slightly* punchier and tighter bass at the very low frequencies. You can't expect a large transformation with a subwoofer ie. massive punchy bass. Turning up the volume and/or crossover frequency on the subwoofer too much will cause undesirable effects as you have figured out.

I have placed the TLE1 sub almost in the middle between the speakers, in a very large room (no side walls) with the crossover frequency at about 52 Hz (the SHL5 Plus go down to 40 Hz on paper).. Basically the SH5 Plus are in free space.
 
Robby said:
It seems integrating the sub is as straightforward as the advice you get! (all the opinions are appreciated though).

To be honest I wanted adding a sub to be as simple as possible without additional boxes/software etc.

I will give it another go later today and hopefully will maintain my sanity and get a good position/settings for the sub.
Click to expand...
As you are finding there will be lots of conflicting advice, mine included! I used to run 2 subs, I found that pulling the main speakers out into the room so they produced less bass helped their mid-range and I could integrate the sub better plus this let the sub handle more of the bass. It can take a while to get to know what works in a particular room.
 
Tony L said:
When recommending this stuff it is probably wise to mention that you either end up with a delayed bass signal due to the additional signal processing, or have to digitise and delay the feed going to the open and revealing Harbeths. Never a free lunch in audio!
Click to expand...

Good point!
 
Robby said:
It seems integrating the sub is as straightforward as the advice you get! (all the opinions are appreciated though).

To be honest I wanted adding a sub to be as simple as possible without additional boxes/software etc.

I will give it another go later today and hopefully will maintain my sanity and get a good position/settings for the sub.
Click to expand...

Can't you return it and get a better sub?

I'd look for something like a REL S3 at least.
 
kennyh said:
Hahaha :D Yes it was how I felt when I bought mine. Sold it on before it did my head in.
Click to expand...

I'm close! Maybe I should be a little bit more patient.

I bought it from Richer Sounds and I am going to go in today to see if they would allow me to return it if needs be.....
 
I'll be blunt here, I hate the things! There are some situations where two subs can maybe be of some use, e.g. fancy dipole subs built into the stands of ESL63s or whatever, but a single one is just never going to work if you really want to follow the bassline, especially if you like music where the bass is often over to one side (jazz, classical etc). I've heard a lot of sub/single sat systems from the budget to the real high-end and I have aways been conscious of the split between sat and sub. With a high quality speaker such as a Monitor 30 which has to be good to 40-45Hz or so I'd be utterly amazed if a sub would bring anything to the picture I'd want. If they are sounding a bit bass-light I'd look to position and/or what is upstream of them (they are revealing speakers and will let you know).

If you must use a sub I'd insist it was directly between the speakers and exactly the same distance from the driver centre to listening seat as the main speakers, i.e. get it balanced both left to right and in the time domain. Then set it at its lowest cut-off frequency and adjust the volume until you think you can hear it on bass-heavy stuff, then back it down until you probably can't. Live with that for a while turning it on and off now and again and see if it adds or detracts. Play plenty of acoustic stuff e.g. string quartets, solo piano, jazz etc and follow the bass notes, timing etc, and the location of the instruments on stage. Also listen to things a lot higher up, vocals, violins, sax, drums etc. If the soundstage flattens or the notes down the bass neck are uneven (double/cancel etc) you have the timing/phase wrong somewhere. Chances are it will end up back in its box and placed on eBay, but some folk seem able to live with them!

PS Anyone thinking of arguing that subs can't be heard directionally needs to go out and buy Bill Evans Complete Village Vanguard (everyone should have this anyway, obvs), plonk the sub on the right hand side and tell me the image isn't totally bolloxed (the double bass should be somewhere to the left and behind the left speaker, a very wide image on this one)!
 
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radamel said:
Can't you return it and get a better sub?

I'd look for something like a REL S3 at least.
Click to expand...

If I could afford it I might be tempted but I am not sure I wouldn't eradicate the issues I am having.

I think some of it is psychological - maybe listening for something that isn't there in the bass or should be.

One of the issues I had was finding a song that was long enough and with a consistent bass that I could adjust properly.
 
Tony L said:
I'll be blunt here, I hate the things! There are some situations where two subs can maybe be of some use, e.g. fancy dipole subs built into the stands of ESL63s or whatever, but a single one is just never going to work if you really want to follow the bassline, especially if you like music where the bass is often over to one side (jazz, classical etc). I've heard a lot of sub/single sat systems from the budget to the real high-end and I have aways been conscious of the split between sat and sub. With a high quality speaker such as a Monitor 30 which has to be good to 40-45Hz or so I'd be utterly amazed if a sub would bring anything to the picture I'd want. If they are sounding a bit bass-light I'd look to position and/or what is upstream of them (they are revealing speakers and will let you know).

If you must use a sub I'd insist it was directly between the speakers and exactly the same distance from the listening seat as the speakers, i.e. get it balanced both left to right and in the time domain. Then set it at its lowest cut-off frequency and adjust the volume until you think you can hear it on bass-heavy stuff, then back it down until you think you probably can't. Live with that for a while turning it on and off now and again and see if it adds or detracts. Play plenty of acoustic stuff e.g. string quartets, solo piano, jazz etc and follow the bass notes, timing etc, and the location of the instruments on stage. Also listen to things a lot higher up, vocals, violins, sax, drums etc. If the soundstage flattens or the notes down the bass neck are uneven (double/cancel etc) you have the timing/phase wrong somewhere. Chances are it will end up back in its box and placed on eBay, but some seem able to live with them!

PS Anyone thinking of arguing that subs can't be heard directionally needs to go out and buy Bill Evans Complete Village Vanguard (everyone should have this anyway, obvs), plonk the sub on the right hand side and tell me the image isn't totally bolloxed (the double bass should be somewhere to the left and behind the left speaker, a very wide image on this one)!
Click to expand...
:cool:
You should really try a pair of truly good ones like REL Gibraltar G2s.
 
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Were you using leads to the sub Robby or wiring it to speaker terminals?

I tried both and as you say it was difficult to set up to sound anything like convincing. Tony's positioning theory is probably correct but in most rooms and with most wives is bordering on impossible.

Get shut and put the effort in to a Raspberry PI, far more worth the hassle:D
 
Robby said:
If I could afford it I might be tempted but I am not sure I wouldn't eradicate the issues I am having.

I think some of it is psychological - maybe listening for something that isn't there in the bass or should be.

One of the issues I had was finding a song that was long enough and with a consistent bass that I could adjust properly.
Click to expand...

Jose James "Fine and Mellow" is a great subwoofer integration test IMO. If it sounds correct with this one chances are it's well integrated.
And it's a great great cover too!
 
kennyh said:
Were you using leads to the sub Robby or wiring it to speaker terminals?

I tried both and as you say it was difficult to set up to sound anything like convincing. Tony's positioning theory is probably correct but in most rooms and with most wives is bordering on impossible.

Get shut and put the effort in to a Raspberry PI, far more worth the hassle:D
Click to expand...

What sub were you trying to integrate?
 
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