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Speaker advice - open plan room

J

jjmarriott

Wiim Pro, Supernait, PMC Twenty5 26
Hi all. I’m looking for some speaker advice. My system lives at the end of an open plan room (lounge, diner, kitchen). The room is 16 meters by 4.5 meters. The ceiling is vaulted at maybe 5 metres. I currently have Linn Akurate 212 speakers on matching stands and they sound amazing, but they lack in bass. I have two REL T Zero subwoofers that make up for that, but I’d like to simplify the setup and move to some floor standing speakers. I used to have PMC Twenty 21 speakers (in a different house) and I like the sound, so I was thinking about possibly the PMC Twenty5 23, 24, or 26. But I’m unsure what size would be best for this space. Can anyone advise? I don’t have the budget to buy new right now, I’m afraid home demo’s aren’t possible - nor do I seem to live anywhere near a PMC dealer. If you have any other recommendations vs PMC, I’m also open to suggestions.

Regarding the rest of my system, I’ve recently moved back to a Supernait 1 in order to simplify my system. I do intend on upgrading to a hi cap at some point, but probably no further than that for a while. In terms of source, I have just purchased a Wiim Pro (which is fab!!) for streaming, and an LP12/Ittok/Lingo3 for vinyl. I’m only saying this in case that may guide any advice you’re able to offer.

Thanks in advance!! 😊
 
Thank You! It’s quite an interesting place! It’s an old barn conversion with upside down living. But due to the way the ground slopes around the property, you can walk to the outside through either floor. We moved in in November (rented) having travelled (and worked) around Europe in our Land Rover for two years (sleeping in a roof tent!) so it’s quite a shock coming from such a tiny space!! Haha. Unfortunately we had to stop travelling for health reasons, but we’re settling in nicely! we’re very much enjoying the slower pace of life in Somerset vs the south east :)
 
jjmarriott said:
Hi all. I’m looking for some speaker advice. My system lives at the end of an open plan room (lounge, diner, kitchen). The room is 16 meters by 4.5 meters. The ceiling is vaulted at maybe 5 metres. I currently have Linn Akurate 212 speakers on matching stands and they sound amazing, but they lack in bass. I have two REL T Zero subwoofers that make up for that, but I’d like to simplify the setup and move to some floor standing speakers.
Click to expand...

How far do you listen?

Do you enjoy sharp or fuzzy images?

Are you more likely to sit in the sweet spot for focused listening or you generally sit anywhere in the room and/or play 'background' music as you move around or cook?
 
Please forgive me for the lack of scale - I’m certainly not an architect!! Haha. The room itself, although there are no walls, is roughly split into three. So the lounge area, as such, is approx 5m in width, leaving 10m to the right of where we listen to music for the kitchen and diner.

But as you can see, the speakers are facing the sofa and not to the rest of the room. This is because there’s a log burner to the left of the sofa, so it wasn’t possible to place the tv and speakers on the end wall. The speakers are fairly close to the wall behind, as is the sofa, so listening distance is around the 4-4.5m mark.

We use the hifi for music no matter where we are in the room, but we don’t expect amazing sound given the placement of the speakers - it’s more background music at that point. Active listening takes place on the sofa. But even then, we could be sitting anywhere on the sofa (the sofa is a four seater, so no central position is ever really sat at).

What do you mean by sharp vs fuzzy images?
 
I thought it might be worth mentioning also that there are floor to ceiling windows along the entire length of the wall where the tv / speakers are. I understand glass isn’t great for sound, but there are rounded pillars (plasterboard) directly behind the speakers (between every pane of glass actually) and we draw the curtains when actively listening. Thought I’d mention that just in case that feeds into your thinking.
 
jjmarriott said:
https://flic.kr/p/2pxotmG
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's very helpful.

Your current layout has 3 disadvantages compared to having the speakers against the short 4.5m wall:
• the left speaker is a lot closer to a corner - this will increase the bass level and the peaks and dips will not be identical to the right speaker, you will probably get better results with standmount and a subwoofer
• the left speaker is a lot closer to a side wall - this will change the tonal balance of the left speaker in the midrange and lower treble, less so if you opt for speakers with smooth off-axis response (not the PMCs), and will make the stereo images closer to said speaker wider but/and less focused, and the soundstage will be somewhat stretched towards the left
• the listening spot is close to the back wall - this is one of the worst locations in terms of room mode interference (strong booming peaks and cancellations)

Symmetry is paramount in stereo speakers and listener positioning but unfortunately it is not always possible to achieve in domestic conditions.

If you are unable to rotate your setup 90º so that the short wall is behind the speakers they you might be better off using a pair of narrow directivity standmount speakers and 1 or 2 subwoofer (or narrow directivity floorstanders as a second choice) and some form of digital or analogue room EQ to compensate for the effects in the bass.
 
jjmarriott said:
Please forgive me for the lack of scale - I’m certainly not an architect!! Haha. The room itself, although there are no walls, is roughly split into three. So the lounge area, as such, is approx 5m in width, leaving 10m to the right of where we listen to music for the kitchen and diner.

But as you can see, the speakers are facing the sofa and not to the rest of the room. This is because there’s a log burner to the left of the sofa, so it wasn’t possible to place the tv and speakers on the end wall. The speakers are fairly close to the wall behind, as is the sofa, so listening distance is around the 4-4.5m mark.

We use the hifi for music no matter where we are in the room, but we don’t expect amazing sound given the placement of the speakers - it’s more background music at that point. Active listening takes place on the sofa. But even then, we could be sitting anywhere on the sofa (the sofa is a four seater, so no central position is ever really sat at).

What do you mean by sharp vs fuzzy images?
Click to expand...

I was replying to your sketch and now I see that you are unable to rotate the setup.

When a speaker is positioned next to a hard/reflective surface that surface will reflect the sound coming from the speaker.
If that reflected sound arrives before 40ms (precedence effect) it is perceived by humans as a single source. This source will appear wider/stretched but also less focused or fuzzy.
And unless the speakers have a smooth/flat response off-axis the combined direct-reflected sound will be tonally different from the other speaker.

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You can learn a bit about setting up speakers by reading the links I just posted in another thread:

pinkfishmedia.net

Loudspeakers too far apart?

This video shows Jim Smith, the author of "Get Better Sound" being interviewed. His magic formula is that your loudspeakers should be placed around 83% apart, to the distance you sit from them. In his opinion this usually gives the most engaging sound...
pinkfishmedia.net pinkfishmedia.net
 
Definitely put speakers against the short wall in such a case, far from it and make a listening position in the near field. As for PMC, go for 26 or 24 (the difference between them is not only scale, but dedicated mid-range in 26 so if budget allows, I would prefer 26)
 
You could attenuate the side wall reflection issues by placing absorption or maybe a bookcase in the left-hand side early reflection zone to create some level of symmetry artificially (but this will only affect frequencies from the mid-midrange upwards).
This calculator will help you determine the location of the reflection zone:

Locating areas of first reflections

www.acoustic.ua
 
Speakers against the short wall firing down the room.
The space is big enough to bring the speakers 2m. (ish) away from the short wall, this should be far enough away from the log burner to not cause heat issues. At least 1m away from the long side walls.
The sofa can then be moved 90° to face the short wall.
Shift the TV as well, natch.

The joy of this kind of situation is that moving the speakers and sofa takes little effort and costs nothing.
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I can’t place the speakers along the end wall as there’s a log burner in the corner next to the sofa. I have no choice but to place them where they currently are. The corner to the left of the speakers contains a solid wood cabinet containing the hifi gear, plus there are curtains. The left hand speaker is approx 2 meters from that corner.
 
I used to have a 6m high ceiling and only solved the lack of bass with a mezzanine. Speakers lose a lot of room gain at the bottom end
 
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jjmarriott said:
I currently have Linn Akurate 212 speakers on matching stands and they sound amazing, but they lack in bass. I have two REL T Zero subwoofers that make up for that, but I’d like to simplify the setup and move to some floor standing speakers.
Click to expand...
Do I understand you right ? - do you want to replace above speakers/subs with floor standers only ?
If thats a yes, I doubt you get considerably more bas within no budget.

In such a large room bas sort of disappear.

Maybe some solid 15" but no idea if any brand have such solution, vintage JBL or Tannoy perhaps, not cheap.

Your amp is fine, but such a large room it may be too klein.
 
pfbaat said:
Do I understand you right ? - do you want to replace above speakers/subs with floor standers only ?
If thats a yes, I doubt you get considerably more bas within no budget.

In such a large room bas sort of disappear.

Maybe some solid 15" but no idea if any brand have such solution, vintage JBL or Tannoy perhaps, not cheap.

Your amp is fine, but such a large room it may be too klein.
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s right. I’m needing to declutter. Would a large floor stander like the PMC 25.26 not still do a considerably better job vs the 212 bookshelf’s in the bass department?
 
jjmarriott said:
Thanks everyone for your input. I can’t place the speakers along the end wall as there’s a log burner in the corner next to the sofa. I have no choice but to place them where they currently are. The corner to the left of the speakers contains a solid wood cabinet containing the hifi gear, plus there are curtains. The left hand speaker is approx 2 meters from that corner.
Click to expand...

2 metres is substantial, the issues I mentioned early regarding proximity to corner and side wall will probably not be much of an issue.
 
tuga said:
2 metres is substantial, the issues I mentioned early regarding proximity to corner and side wall will probably not be much of an issue.
Click to expand...
Ok, great. So we’re talking speaker size here? The room size warrants bigger speakers?
 
jjmarriott said:
Yes, that’s right. I’m needing to declutter. Would a large floor stander like the PMC 25.26 not still do a considerably better job vs the 212 bookshelf’s in the bass department?
Click to expand...

The PMC 25.26 is a small 3-way standmount with a single small 6.5" woofer.
According to the Hi-Fi News measurements the 25.26 does only 38Hz @ 6dB (ref. 200Hz) and high 1.2%THD @ 100Hz/90dB/1m (the Kef R3 standmount does 0.5% THD).
I seriously doub that it'll match the performance of your REL subs.
 
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