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Shall we stop the discussion..

I think it's clear that people have their views on it, but personally yes I think it's been covered enough. I'm sure it will still keep cropping up though, we all have our drums to bang.
 
I’d suggest discussing it more! It is highly significant given so much kit these days is made using cheap labour, in dictatorships, without sustainability or serviceability, with total disregard for intellectual property etc etc. With luxury kit such as audio we have the choice whether to accept this or not.
 
Tony L said:
I’d suggest discussing it more! It is highly significant given so much kit these days is made using cheap labour, in dictatorships, without sustainability or serviceability, with total disregard for intellectual property etc etc. With luxury kit such as audio we have the choice whether to accept this or not.
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I am with you on this, although with Trump soon to be POTUS and the way things are going in the UK and continental Europe regarding the environment, freedom and wellfare politics we'll soon have few origins to choose from...
 
It's not as simple as where it's made. Even made in uk usually means assembled in uk with parts sourced from abroad.
All the "designed and engineered" talk usually goes straight over my head.
 
Ellenor said:
It's not as simple as where it's made. Even made in uk usually means assembled in uk with parts sourced from abroad.
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Indeed, until there's a 'sustainable' certification for electronics it's all just a load of hot air.
 
I actively avoid anything made in China, on the grounds that I am unwilling to support the Chinese state. I realise that it is often difficult to avoid Chinese components in kit but it is possible to avoid overtly Chinese products. Price seems to be the main driver for many; these people are willing to 'look the other way' as long as it's cheap. Wiim, Eversolo, Aliexpress, et al; all a no no in my book.

I am of an age that remembers and participated (in a small way) in the movement to help end apartheid in South Africa. Boycotting South African goods was part of the struggle for decades. For those that are not aware;

Cultural Boycott and the Anti Apartheid Movement Campaign

The Anti-Apartheid Movement began as the Boycott Movement, set up in 1959 to persuade shoppers to boycott goods from apartheid sources.
www.aamarchives.org www.aamarchives.org
 
Ellenor said:
It's not as simple as where it's made. Even made in uk usually means assembled in uk with parts sourced from abroad.
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Important point

I have yet to find any manufacturer which explain percentage of parts sourced from other countries, they might even not know precisely.

My own guess could be at least 50% of parts inside most electronics of today, are sourced in Asia - if not more.

I doubt many manufaturers like to talk about the issue.
 
simon g said:
I actively avoid anything made in China, on the grounds that I am unwilling to support the Chinese state. I realise that it is often difficult to avoid Chinese components in kit but it is possible to avoid overtly Chinese products. Price seems to be the main driver for many; these people are willing to 'look the other way' as long as it's cheap. Wiim, Eversolo, Aliexpress, et al; all a no no in my book.
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It is so complex. I view the Chinese state as a horrendous authoritarian dictatorship that has successfully destroyed much of the rest of the world’s ability to manufacture as a result of a very deliberate strategy of market-flooding subsidised and unnaturally cheap technology. This has rendered the west a hollowed-out shell absolutely dependant on the Chinese communist state for much of its core infrastructure. It amazes me it has been allowed to happen by a string of vacuous neoliberal politicians in the US, UK, EU etc. The west has lost its manufacturing base and all relevant skillsets. That said I have huge respect for China as a land, people and culture. Bad politics, especially when those bad politics are enforced via an authoritarian dictatorship, can not be blamed on the population at large. China is an amazing place in so many respects, but every purchase needs to be viewed with the underlying strategy of the Chinese Communist Party in mind.

In many respects we are trapped as our politicians have allowed our technological and manufacturing base to decay to the point of non-existence. In IT and mass consumer electronics there are no longer alternatives. You can’t buy a British or American made laptop. They just don’t exist. This annoys me hugely, especially given I’ve just spent a horrific/irrational amount of money ordering a new Macbook in order to retire my previous 12 year old and long unsupported one. I wish I could buy from a company where manufacturing facilities don’t need suicide nets to stop low-wage employees jumping to their deaths (Wikipedia), but sadly that is not possible in the world of computer technology. Even at the high-end when spending a couple of thousand quid.

With audio we do still have a choice. There are still many products made in the UK, US, EU etc by skilled labour paid a fair wage. Even if some components (resistors, capacitors, chips etc) are made in a low-wage dictatorship you are still buying something made in a fair-wage environment where intellectual property is respected. Also with such an old and mature technology as audio electronics servicing, restoring and enjoying equipment from the golden age is viable pretty much indefinitely.

As ever it all comes back to politics and I do think our politicians own the decline of our manufacturing base. Bad decisions made a generation ago have led us to the economic death-spiral we are witnessing today. Just another facet of the failure of neoliberalism and short-term right-wing politics.
 
Tony L said:
It is so complex. I view the Chinese state as a horrendous authoritarian dictatorship that has successfully destroyed much of the rest of the world’s ability to manufacture as a result of a very deliberate strategy of market-flooding subsidised and unnaturally cheap technology. This has rendered the west a hollowed-out shell absolutely dependant on the Chinese communist state for much of its core infrastructure. It amazes me it has been allowed to happen by a string of vacuous neoliberal politicians in the US, UK, EU etc.
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Particularly as that is almost exactly what the west, especially the US, does to countries in Africa and elsewhere. But the difference being that those countries are forced to accept trade agreements that suppress their own manufacturing. Such as flooding west Africa with cast-off western clothes to the extent that it is not economical to make their own. And tying it all to the dollar.
At least (at the moment) the west has a choice, and chooses cheap. But then bleats about it!
What goes around comes around.
 
It depends on what we’re talking about. I will never buy foreign cars anymore, to support out car industry, even if I know some parts are made in Spain or Germany. Buying from Europe is fine.
But I will never support Korean or Chinese industries.
 
International trade benefits everyone and is a useful catalyst for securing world peace. China depends on world trade and the US/EU and the UK have the influence to form partnerships directly with major suppliers to up the standards of the work force on an incremental basis. Quite a few companies in the UK already do this.

Also we cannot escape China, India and other cheap supply sources because if we did, everyone would be squawking when prices rocket and supply becomes intermittent.

Also it's a bit hypocritical moaning about suppliers when you buy your clothes from supermarkets when you yourself could have gone elsewhere. Cheap underpants come from China.

Back in the 1950s, Japan was a low wage / low economy supplier but today its name is synonymous with quality. China and India will slowly go the same way. Also history Shows it is imprudent to interfere with another nations politics.

Buying foreign is perfectly normal and the UK is a service economy and we don't want our citizens standing in front on machines churning out widgets, so let someone else do it when they need the work.
 
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