Really? Why don't you try disabling the suspension of your car and let me know how you get on?
Rega Naia
- Thread starter Aspro
- Start date
Well given that the moving record groove needs to transmit vibrations to the stylus with little or no other movement involved having the whole arm/platter assembly 'floating' on a suspension can only be detrimental to that (all other things being equal of course) although the harmonic frequency differences between this and the stylus will be very different. The suspension is there to try and remove unwanted vibrations from the likes of the motor or the environment in which the turntable is situated, but using a different design philosophy of light, but rigid and building the turntable out of materials that do not promote vibration seems a far better engineering solution to me... that said, I do appreciate that turntable engineers have far more experience than I of actual turntable design, but Rega's approach does seem the more 'pure', to me anyway.
Not sure the vehicle suspension analogy works too well as vehicles have no option other than to weigh a lot and run over terrain that would simply make the vehicle a distinctly unpleasant place to be were it to have no suspension. Bicycles weigh very little comparatively and they work fine without suspension albeit the human being on them acts as a suspension to an extent.
Tim Jones
pfm Member
Were I to do so, I'd feel the vibrations of the road surface much more accurately. Which is kind-of my point
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
Poor analogy. ...But in a way that's kinda exactly what the LP12 type suspension is, the LP12 utilizes a "disabling of a cars type suspension" setup buy using only its free bouncy springs which -with continued energy input- will eventually bounce off into chaos theory without the shock absorbers that maintain & control both the rebound and compression of the springs as in a properly functioning cars suspension, many LP12 owners have experienced this when they've walked towards their playing LP12 and every step closer they get to it increases it's bouncing until it mistracks/platter strikes the top plate. ...Take those shocks out of your car leaving only the springs and tell me how it drives? -Spoiler alert, you wont get far down the road until you find the cars drivability to be completely uncontrollable.
I don't think you understand what you are talking about.Were I to do so, I'd feel the vibrations of the road surface much more accurately. Which is kind-of my point
DiBosco
Active Member
Am fascinated by this thread and most especially by how many people have changed turntables over the years. Got my LP12 back in the mid 80s and never even heard any other turntable in the meanwhile.
I am intrigued as to whether I would hear a different TT and think wow that sounds great, but even if I was impressed by one, I think I'd have to hear it in my home with my system to know whether it would be a worthwhile change.
Generally speaking when I add or change things on my hi-fi I get minimal differences. I was told when I changed the Linn's PSU I would get all sorts of improvements, but it sound exactly the same, was just that I could play 45s at the push of a button that made it worthwhile!
The one massive improvement I do remember is the last stylus I bought, going to a fine line, that was amazing.
BTW am not in the slightest saying other people can't hear improvements or that they shouldn't change their TT etc. Just how I don't think I'd be able to hear any real improvement if I was to go down this rabbit hole. (And also, I've always just been really happy with the Linn. It sounds fabulous, so I can't be arsed even thinking about changing it!) Doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about others and what they find.
I am intrigued as to whether I would hear a different TT and think wow that sounds great, but even if I was impressed by one, I think I'd have to hear it in my home with my system to know whether it would be a worthwhile change.
Generally speaking when I add or change things on my hi-fi I get minimal differences. I was told when I changed the Linn's PSU I would get all sorts of improvements, but it sound exactly the same, was just that I could play 45s at the push of a button that made it worthwhile!
The one massive improvement I do remember is the last stylus I bought, going to a fine line, that was amazing.
BTW am not in the slightest saying other people can't hear improvements or that they shouldn't change their TT etc. Just how I don't think I'd be able to hear any real improvement if I was to go down this rabbit hole. (And also, I've always just been really happy with the Linn. It sounds fabulous, so I can't be arsed even thinking about changing it!) Doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about others and what they find.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
'Promote' did a lot of heavy question-lifting in that comment.
John
Rack’em Up!
I would say the suspension on the Naia are the feet.
It‘s interesting how the foot was able to become more or less a spike with the Naiad.
Here’s a bit from a P10 review regarding the feet:
Like the P8, the P10 sits on three semisoft footers developed for the Planar 6. These incorporate an elastomer called Santoprene, which is said to be sufficiently soft to provide a "sensible" degree of isolation but not so soft that it would damp the turntable; the latter, Freeman told me, would be "really quite bad."
It‘s interesting how the foot was able to become more or less a spike with the Naiad.
Here’s a bit from a P10 review regarding the feet:
Like the P8, the P10 sits on three semisoft footers developed for the Planar 6. These incorporate an elastomer called Santoprene, which is said to be sufficiently soft to provide a "sensible" degree of isolation but not so soft that it would damp the turntable; the latter, Freeman told me, would be "really quite bad."
laughingboy
pfm Member
Well-designed turntable suspensions are not intuitive. Their behaviour is different at different frequencies.
They transmit really low frequency vibration almost perfectly. Higher up the frequency spectrum - at the suspension's resonant frequency - they actually amplify vibration, which is why footfall can cause an LP12 to jump. If you were to stop here, you'd conclude that suspensions are a terrible idea. But crucially, at higher frequencies - about 1.4 times the resonant peak of the suspension - they begin to filter out vibration. This isolation increases with frequency. In short, the suspension acts as a low-pass filter.
If you want to filter out vibration at audio frequencies, your turntable suspension needs to have a low resonant peak, less than 5Hz.
Watch Max Townshend demonstrate the principle using a spring and a pink elephant (at around 11 minutes in):
They transmit really low frequency vibration almost perfectly. Higher up the frequency spectrum - at the suspension's resonant frequency - they actually amplify vibration, which is why footfall can cause an LP12 to jump. If you were to stop here, you'd conclude that suspensions are a terrible idea. But crucially, at higher frequencies - about 1.4 times the resonant peak of the suspension - they begin to filter out vibration. This isolation increases with frequency. In short, the suspension acts as a low-pass filter.
If you want to filter out vibration at audio frequencies, your turntable suspension needs to have a low resonant peak, less than 5Hz.
Watch Max Townshend demonstrate the principle using a spring and a pink elephant (at around 11 minutes in):
cosimoss
One Step Beyond
I would say the suspension on the Naia are the feet.
Yes, just feet for the Naia, "Low mass skeletal aluminium feet". I wonder what compound the rings at the top and bottom are?
As with yourself, I have very rarely heard massive improvements in different ‘decent’ audio components.Am fascinated by this thread and most especially by how many people have changed turntables over the years. Got my LP12 back in the mid 80s and never even heard any other turntable in the meanwhile.
I am intrigued as to whether I would hear a different TT and think wow that sounds great, but even if I was impressed by one, I think I'd have to hear it in my home with my system to know whether it would be a worthwhile change.
Generally speaking when I add or change things on my hi-fi I get minimal differences. I was told when I changed the Linn's PSU I would get all sorts of improvements, but it sound exactly the same, was just that I could play 45s at the push of a button that made it worthwhile!
The one massive improvement I do remember is the last stylus I bought, going to a fine line, that was amazing.
BTW am not in the slightest saying other people can't hear improvements or that they shouldn't change their TT etc. Just how I don't think I'd be able to hear any real improvement if I was to go down this rabbit hole. (And also, I've always just been really happy with the Linn. It sounds fabulous, so I can't be arsed even thinking about changing it!) Doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about others and what they find.
My Pre cirkus LP12 with Hercules and Ittok LV11 sounds as good or better as any other front end that I have heard.
That includes a DCS up sampling CD player and various other high supposedly end CD and SACD digital players, on my system.
I have also heard many record decks in other systems but none that made me think that I was missing anything.
I am quite prepared to accept that my standards of acceptance are low but honestly when people say they hear night and day differences or that something made some other component with audio pretensions sound broken, I just cringe inside because I have never experienced that.
Having said that though, I do prefer my LP12 to my Axis and to the KAM direct drive turntable that I have hear.
I can also hear differences between my Rega Planet mark one and my Pioneer CD recorder but they are not mind blowing differences, in my humble opinion.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
He puts on a good circus stage show but putting those things under gear or speakers takes away from the listeners ability to understand the artists musical message, AKA the tune. I've heard the demo several times personally on a number of different money grab so called "isolation" solutions including the Townshend. Say what you want about inexpensive speaker spikes but I have never heard speakers sound more musical on anything other then properly adjusted metal spikes sitting on a solid foundation floor.
Tim Jones
pfm Member
I don't think you want to understand what I and others are talking about, but let me try again in simpler terms for you.
Your analogy is just poor, because suspension on a TT is doing a different thing to suspension on a car.
There are different approaches to suspending a TT, whether pretty simple in an LP12, or complex and damped in an SME20 (both of which I've owned btw). However, Rega's idea is that compliance, whether vertical or lateral by way of slewing, isn't necessarily the best idea for measuring the microscopic information in a record groove. And I think there is something in this. You are of course free to differ.
Were I to do so, I'd feel the vibrations of the road surface much more accurately. Which is kind-of my point
This is what you said Tim. Which it compleley wrong. You're equating the road surface with the record surface so reading it 'accurately' is better. But the road surface is not like the information on a record. The road surface is environmental noise which you want to isolate the car from, just as suspension on a turntable isolates the turntable from the environment. At least it tries to.
I agree that there is something in what Rega is doing but a turntable is only ever a carefully chosen set of compromises and Rega decks are no different. A suspended turntable is a different set but you can't say that either are wrong as both have issues. Both camps ignore the issues with their own systems while highlighting the problems with the opposition but if rigid turntables really were as great as Rega say they are, suspended turntables would no longer exist.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
Wondering if you wrote that last statement with a straight face? Might as well ask: If Analog is so great why does Digital exist? ...Here's another: If pure clean water is the best and healthiest liquid to consume why does beer -or any other beverage- exist?
And BTW: It's not just Rega saying that rigid turntables can be great.
tomek
pfm Member
Most likely like many of you I have listened to many, many turntables over the past decades. Cheap ones, expensive ones, very expensive ones. As a rule, the more expensive, the better, better dynamics, more detail, better stereo stage, more musicality and so on. Yesterday I had another opportunity to listen to the Naia at my dealer's, this time I brought some of my LPs. And again I was shocked. IMHO the Naia is something completely different, something that can't be compared with any other turntable, maybe a little bit with the P10. I don't know what this is due to. Maybe the fact that the Naia, the tonearm, the Aphelion and the Aura phono are like a tuned whole. I have never heard such an amazing reproduction of music.
I'm not interested in the construction details, just the result itself. And the result is that it looks like these various design details are just the right solutions.
I'm not interested in the construction details, just the result itself. And the result is that it looks like these various design details are just the right solutions.
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What is the material between the 2 fiberglass(?) frame plates? How would in fare in a hot & humid climate? I've seen foam surround on speaker cone disintegrate over time here in Singapore.I would say the suspension on the Naia are the feet.
Craig B
Re:trophile
"Graphene impregnated Carbon Fibre skeletal plinth with Tancast 8 foam core"
Tancast 8 polyurethane foam (128kg/M3 density) comes from the aerospace industry. I don't see this turning into a puddle anytime soon, even in Singapore.
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