Please Help! LP12 upgrade gone wrong...

[paulbysea]

I think it is likely to be a set-up issue and with a bit of tuning, you could get it to sound better. Taking it to a competent dealer to have it looked over and listened to is a good idea, if there is an underlying issue with one of the components you installed then they will be able to identify this. Good luck.
BTW I used my LP12, Ittock and Dynavector 10x5 when it was at a similar level to yours with a Lite for a bit and it sounded great through that.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

I was just going to ask the same question in other ways... not doubting the perceived difference with a cirkus (never heard one), but how could it be measured for the objectivists?

Use a test record/blank record, and measure the noise and FR with different bearing/sub chassis setups… but with everything else unchanged.

I’ve heard pretty significant improvements each time I’ve upgraded it, and I’ve attributed that to reduced noise/rumble, improved mounting interface and stiffer sub chassis, which the Majik, Kore and Keel definitely are… and I believe the Cirkus sub chassis was too. The newer (current) range of sub chassis are progressively stiffer and more inert, and that definitely shows in how they present music (with greater resolution and tonal accuracy… now whether you actually prefer the newer LP12 sound is another matter altogether… I do, mine has a Kore and Karousel and it’s pretty much all the deck I could ever need, no real desire to spend more on it.

 

[Mr Pig]

You could buy a Technics, which from what I've heard gives you most of what a half decent Linn does with none of the faff and less cost. No, I'm not kidding.

Personally, I love the LP12 and have no intention of getting rid of it but what can I say, the deck can be a pain in the rear. There are so many configurations and qualifications I hardly know where to start.

First, who built the deck? From my experience there are more people who aren't very good at setting up an LP12 than are. I'm talking about Linn dealers here. You can't assume it's been done right and if wrong it will not sound good.

The Ittok is a good arm, much better than a Basik, but it is not a neutral sounding device. It has great bass but an upper mid/lower treble lift which can make it sound dynamic and impressive on good recordings but harsh on others. You end up playing records that sound good with it rather than just playing the music you like.

The Cirkus bearing is cleaner and more detailed than the older bearing but it does remove some of the air and fullness. I prefer the older bearing but I can live with the Cirkus in the right context.

There is nothing wrong with the Adikt except that it is ridiculously overpriced. It's a Goldring G1012 in drag. You can do better but it sounded ok before, right? It should simply sound even better if the rest of the deck was right. It's not your problem unless it is damaged.

So my bet is poor set up, something wrong with the arm or you just don't like it. You may not like the Cirkus but it shouldn't kill the sound the way you describe.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

You could buy a Technics, which from what I've heard gives you most of what a half decent Linn does with none of the faff and less cost. No, I'm not kidding.

Personally, I love the LP12 and have no intention of getting rid of it but what can I say, the deck can be a pain in the rear. There are so many configurations and qualifications I hardly know where to start.

First, who built the deck? From my experience there are more people who aren't very good at setting up an LP12 than are. I'm talking about Linn dealers here. You can't assume it's been done right and if wrong it will not sound good.

The Ittok is a good arm, much better than a Basik, but it is not a neutral sounding device. It has great bass but an upper mid/lower treble lift which can make it sound dynamic and impressive on good recordings but harsh on others. You end up playing records that sound good with it rather than just playing the music you like.

The Cirkus bearing is cleaner and more detailed than the older bearing but it does remove some of the air and fullness. I prefer the older bearing but I can live with the Cirkus in the right context.

There is nothing wrong with the Adikt except that it is ridiculously overpriced. It's a Goldring G1012 in drag. You can do better but it sounded ok before, right? It should simply sound even better if the rest of the deck was right. It's not your problem unless it is damaged.

So my bet is poor set up, something wrong with the arm or you just don't like it. You may not like the Cirkus but it shouldn't kill the sound the way you describe.

I’ve seen some proper pigs ears… it just baffles me how! It’s not particularly difficult or complicated, it just takes time, patience and attention to detail… and the right tools. I’ve seen one with mismatched springs, as in really old ones (the original type) mixed with newer black springs… why??? They’re cheap as chips, use new springs. Peter Swain goes a step further and even rejects new springs if they don’t meet his approval… but he gives good guidance on how to get the best from them and where to use them on the deck based on feel (like using the stiffest one on the rear right corner because that’s where the weight of the tonearm is concentrated)… makes sense, and it’s pretty straightforward.

A friend bought one last year and brought to me to sort out because it was obvious it wasn’t right… by the time I’d finished, I’d replaced every internal part. It was allegedly newly built up (from used parts) by an ex linn dealer… easy to see why he was an ex linn dealer.

 

[sonddek]

You don't have to keep digging. A Sondek can be a bottomless pit, and even if you spend a fortune bringing it closer to what you want, there are other very affordable and excellent decks which don't need endless upgrades. I bought a used Well Tempered Amadeus for £1400. Bargain. It has required very little fussing about and sounds superb. I also have a couple of Technics 1210s and a couple of Garrard 301s. All these decks are bargains by comparison, and perform very reliably at a very high level for a fraction of what I've spent on my Sondek.

My Sondek is Lingo/Stack Alto/Karousel/In-Soles btw, and I can honestly say it does not outperform my other decks. I use the same arms and cartridges across all these decks, routinely, so I am constantly comparing the decks themselves.

 

[13th Duke of Wymbourne]

IIRC, your Garrard 301s came out of a skip so bargain indeed. Your LP12 would appear identical to mine! Of course, I need a better arm

 

[sonddek]

Yes, indeed, it would be difficult to beat the price I paid for my Garrards, although my 1210 Mk5 came from Crack Convertors for £200, tumbled in an unpadded box, lid broken, arm swinging. But the Rega arm was mechanically good, and sounded great and I sold it. I haven't yet sold the pair of Shure M44s, but when I do I expect that deck will have cost considerably less than the free Garrards!

You do not have to spend a fortune to get a very high performance deck. For example, Lencos are still very cheap and very good. The OP could take the opportunity of this hiatus to step off the springy deck upgrade wringer. It does not have to be a game of Sondek the Hedgehog.

 

[guydarryl]

I don’t know the “Adikt” at all, but your post spurred me on to have a look at reviews (i did have a K9 many years ago and felt that was “spitty/harsh”), this one may may make you feel better:

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/vinyl/240255/b-review-linn-adikt-phono-cartridge-b

 

[Paul Hindle]

There is no witchcraft or faf involved in setting up an LP12. It takes about 20mins if that. Once it’s done it’s done. It doesn’t “go off”. If done incorrectly or the provenance of the parts used is sketchy or the components are mismatched then there will be problems. Like with anything. There are some great guides available on the Cymbiosis website if you fancy having a go but there are good dealers who will do it for you for very little dosh. A good dealer will also know if anything is amiss. Mine was done at my dealer and has sounded wonderful since then (3yrs) and I have knocked it accidentally a couple of times

 

[John]

Anyway, I am pretty confused and slightly panicked, as surely an Ittok is a great upgrade over a Basik LV-V. Likewise with the Cirkus etc. But I know that 'better' or 'more expensive' doesn't always translate to an improvement, and any change can unsettle the balance of a system. One thought I have had is to revert some of the changes and do them again, one by one. Rather like Sherlock Holmes, cracking the case through the process of elimination.
'

The Cirkus needs a better subchassis. I’d look into getting a Majik, Kore or one of the aftermarket alternatives. The Adikt on the Ittok should work well. Place the turntable on a light rigid stand and make sure you have a new Linn belt. If you want to remove a lot of faff dealing with an LP12, replace the sprung suspension with Audio Silente Mushrooms or Analogue Innovations In-Soles. Removing the sprung suspension was a fundamental improvement for my LP12 and cost peanuts compared to most things LP12.

 

[vacuum_tubes]

Not being harsh but the moment you feel you need to upgrade or modify an LP12 stop and look for a different TT.

The LP12 in it's unfettered form is a nice musical deck, nothing magical or special just musical.

Personally I would sell the LP12 and buy a PT1/Anni or a Voyd

The Adikt is ok but again is trounced by a AN IQ2 for the same price and the Ittok is well, just over rated.

 

[silverdarter]

There is at least one member already incoming with "You ruined everything with Cirkus bearing!"

In the meantime, is your cart really aligned correctly? And how sure are you Ittok is good condition?

But perhaps there's a simple truth in: No LP12 sounds as good as your first one (whatever spec that was).

Indeed! It's fascinating to hear everyone's take on it.

I will make a note re: the cart and get the dealer to check thanks. The Ittok is cosmetically excellent and the cue lever mechanism works well, which surprised the dealer who installed it.

And yes, I have considered that since having my eyes (ears?) opened with certain kit, have I simply become more demanding and disappeared down a rabbit hole!

 

[silverdarter]

I don’t think you have made any bad decisions - you can always spend more on LP12 upgrades, but I would expect what you have done to help the whole frequency range. In particular, a working Ittok should help treble, not kill it. The next step is to do exactly what you are doing - don’t panic but do take it to the dealer.

One thing that some have usefully done when at the dealer is to hear a really high-spec LP12. After all, if you hear Karousel, Keel, Ekos 2, Krystal (or above), Radikal 2 and all that and you hate it, then the current upgrade path may not be for you. If you hear that and like it, then the problem here is one or more pieces of implementation, not the chosen direction of travel.

Please let us know how you get on.

Good luck!

Thank you very much! I certainly will update this with any progress after tomorrow's listening session with the dealer. Great point that I should hear a high spec LP12 and see if I like the approach. I am getting the impression that there is a modern LP12 sound that some are not keen on! Very good to know that the changes should have helped across the range - thanks again.

 

[silverdarter]

I think a bearing check on the Ittok is in order. Certainly the newer sub chassis-bearing will make the deck more accurate and a bit less euphoric but it wouldn’t be doing that. Sounds like a duff arm to me, unless the obvious and already mentioned cartridge alignment is good.

Thank you - very helpful. Yes I am starting to get concerned about the Ittok - it seems 'perfect' cosmetically and physically (cue lever works beautifully etc) but I have absolutely no clue as to the internals. Am hoping the specialist can assist there. That's key to know about the sub chassis-bearing thank you.

 

[silverdarter]

Perhaps there is something in the setup of the turntable that is off, who did the setup? What is the turntable sitting on?

Thank you - so, aside from the bearing and sub-chassis, all parts are sourced by me and it was set up by Oranges & Lemons in London. People might shriek but for now (with both setups) it has been on the floor (carpet), as I am looking for the right furniture to reorganise the room to accomodate what is now my main hobby! Today I have put it on what I think is a turntable base (to explain, I was lucky enough to find the base, the Rogers and the Naim in a house clearance) but it has no feet. I am keen to learn about best placement for a turntable, so please do let me know any tips.

 

[andyr]

I recently upgraded my LP12 and whilst it brought some improvements, it also went downhill in other areas. I am a musician and producer, but it has only been in the last 6 months that I've had a home system that really brought recorded music to life. So I'm experienced with audio (studio and live), but an audiophile-in-training as it were! Currently experimenting with setups / different gear. So any advice on the LP12 changes would be extremely useful. I am taking it back to the specialist on Thursday for a listening session to show them the issues. But perhaps you can spot something in the chain that might be the culprit?

I use a Naim Unitilite, Musical Fidelity V90-LPS, Nexera phono cables, QED Silver Anniversary XT and a pair of original Rogers LS3/5A (15 Ohm).

Turntable Previous Spec: 1984 LP12 - Basik LV-V arm, Adikt cartridge (second version - new old stock) new Valhalla, everything else original.

Turntable Updated Spec: I had a secondhand Cirkus bearing installed with a secondhand pre-Majik subchassis. I also put the Adikt onto an Ittok LVIII (earlier version) which came in superb physical condition from HiFi Hangar.

Why I did it: I had previously upgraded from a Denon DP-15F with OM 10 and found that the LP12 had a really beautiful sound and opened things up a lot, but thought it a bit thin on the lower end, and noted that for orchestral music, some of the depth that I was getting with the Denon (for example - the ability to truly visualise the orchestra with eyes closed) had vanished. I did also notice some of the 'grit' had gone. For example the epic guitar solo on Supertramp's 'Goodbye Stranger' lost its edge. The mids and top end in general were astonishing however, and everything was working really well with the Rogers to make non-musician friends squeak with excitement or cry, depending on the track!

Result of Upgrades: The lower end is dramatically improved, beautifully clean, well-rounded and warm. Drums sound incredible and bass is clear and joyful. But the mids have been destroyed and the 'magic' previously present has been lost. It feels like something is now fighting the very strength of the LS3/5A. At low levels it's ok, but at volume the mids quickly disintegrate and become harsh. Vocals become sibilant, lead guitars screech and make me wince - it is no longer a pleasure listening to music unfortunately. Whereas (despite a few areas I wanted improvement in), it was always a complete joy previously. On top of this, orchestral music now definitely sounds more synthetic, sterilised and muted. Driving it harder doesn't open it out. Magic is a funny word to use, but it is appropriate as things really sang before. There was a considerable amount of emotion that came across, but this has been mostly deleted by these harsh mids / whatever is wrong.

I have bought a Linn Karma cartridge as I heard it has a warm sound - I'm wondering if this will help, but feel like I might be trying to patch things up, rather than root out the culprit. Ultimately I'd like to get a valve amplifier, perhaps a Rogers E20, for more warmth and to ensure harmony with the LS3/5A.

Anyway, I am pretty confused and slightly panicked, as surely an Ittok is a great upgrade over a Basik LV-V. Likewise with the Cirkus etc. But I know that 'better' or 'more expensive' doesn't always translate to an improvement, and any change can unsettle the balance of a system. One thought I have had is to revert some of the changes and do them again, one by one. Rather like Sherlock Holmes, cracking the case through the process of elimination.

I would really welcome any advice please. Upto and including 'You fool! How on earth could you contemplate pairing X with Y, change that for Z and you should get a better result.'

What a tale of woe!

And added to which ... a lot of rubbish suggestions/recommendations from posters - as well as some useful ones. (Par for the course I suggest. )

"Harsh mids" - not good at all. As an LP12/FrankenLinn owner for over 40 years ... an LP12 should not be doing this.

Someone suggested that maybe the bearings on your Ittok are stuffed; that makes sense. Certainly, a Cirkus bearing shouldn't cause what you are hearing ... unless it's also stuffed.

You said "Driving it harder doesn't open it out" - so I have to ask ... what amp are you using with your LS3/5As? Is it a good match?

Also, I'm afraid your new Karma is a complete mismatch for your Musical Fidelity V90-LPS. The MF V90-LPS doesn't have enough gain for a 0.1mV cart - plus its load for MC use is only 100 ohms - whereas the Karma specs suggest 470 ohms is optimal.

I presume that as you bought your Ittok from HiFi Hangar ... they installed it? If so - I suggest you need to take your TT back to their premises (remember to a. remove the outer platter and b. slip some polystyrene foam blocks under the inner platter, to lift the end of the spindle up off the thrust plate) - and show them the faults you are hearing.

 

[silverdarter]

You do not say if you reinstalled the motor. Regardless check the platter speed is correct. A deck that runs fast will be brighter and this could well introduce more harshness than you are comfortable with.

Check arm height and tracking weight. Experiment within the limits of the cartridge spec.

Check sub chassis/platter bounce. Contrary to what some people on this forum believe the LP12 usually has excellent speed stability if set up correctly. However the complexity of the asymmetric spring arrangement has added potential for introducing resonance issues depending on where the deck is sited. Instability at higher volumes could be attributable to a resonance issue.

Thank you for this.

So I haven't personally done any of the work on it so not sure regarding the motor - however it is the original one. The specialist tested the speed and said it was good. I have taken your notes to share with them tomorrow, thank you. The deck is likely not sited in a suitable place - it has always been on a carpeted floor, and is now on a turntable base of some sort that has no feet, sitting on top of the Naim amp. Far from ideal I'm sure. It's going to take a while to get the room right to properly accomodate it unfortunately.

 

[silverdarter]

its possible youve had a duff second hand bearing fitted?

This is an avenue of investigation for sure!

 

[silverdarter]

How much are you willing to check yourself vs need a dealer to do for you?
Here's what I would do, adjust if not right:
Check the oil level
Check the torque on the bearing bolts
Check the arm board for square and level
Check the bounce
Check that the deck is level
Check that the arm is level
Check that the cartridge is fitted correctly (protractor)
Check azimuth and tracking weight
Check the speed with a strobe.

Thank you for this - I will take these notes to the dealer tomorrow. I would love to be able to do these myself, however I have no experience. And after watching someone on YouTube trying to restore an LP12 and concluding that he wished he'd never started and recommending nobody else ever attempt it, I thought I should probably leave it to the professionals!

 

[silverdarter]

Buy a blue belt from MikeP and, as Insoles are not available for now, some Audio Silente mushrooms. 100 quid, check set up and listen.

At first I had no clue what you meant, as the only blue belt I've ever had was in karate! However I assume this is to replace the Linn turntable belt and I've looked up the mushrooms thank you. I am so glad I've come on here, as these are exactly the things I'm hoping to learn about. Is MikeP a user on here?