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Mirrorless vs DSLR

2) The range of optics is limited compared to a big brand DSLR, no real telephoto's, so again sports and wildlife photographers are hampered. In the Fuji range there is no real 1:1 macro except the offering from Zeiss

I don't think this is true of the micro four thirds segment of the market. With the Olympus MFT cameras, eg the OMDEM1 you have access to a MFT-FT converter that gives you access to all Olympus's primes and zooms of the last 20 years without any crop factor. So, for instance, I have a fab 35-100 (70-200) F2 zoom for my EM1 - I also have one that goes out to 400mm equivalent at F3.5

The disadvantage of the X series from Fuji is that they have no recent heritage of compatible lenses from cameras with a mirror box. With either Lumix or Olympus MFT bodies you have access to near enough 100 different lenses.
 
If you only want a fixed lens then the Fuji X100 has to be a contender, that said the X-E1 is currently quite a bargain, and the Fuji 18-55 kit lens, is anything but a kit lens in quality, but a G1/G2 are significantly cheaper, but the Fuji sensor and IMO IQ is a lot better.

Personally I found working with the fixed lens of the X100 a wonderful experience and it improved my photography no end, as it really made me work to get the shot, no lazy standing there and zooming away!!

My X100 pics, https://www.flickr.com/photos/89667368@N05/sets/72157642911852834/
 
I don't think this is true of the micro four thirds segment of the market. With the Olympus MFT cameras, eg the OMDEM1 you have access to a MFT-FT converter that gives you access to all Olympus's primes and zooms of the last 20 years without any crop factor. So, for instance, I have a fab 35-100 (70-200) F2 zoom for my EM1 - I also have one that goes out to 400mm equivalent at F3.5

The disadvantage of the X series from Fuji is that they have no recent heritage of compatible lenses from cameras with a mirror box. With either Lumix or Olympus MFT bodies you have access to near enough 100 different lenses.

But Cliff, these lenses are all relatively large, thus in my mind defeating a CSC principle. I've decided that anything that takes a bigger than 58mm filter is too big for my mirrorless setup!!!

Providing you can manual focus, there are plenty of converters to convert just about any lens to any body.
 
Actually the 100-400 equivalent lens is 995 grammes compared to Nikon's 200-400 F4 zoom which is 3.3 kilos

So, if you have to have a fast, light zoom that goes out to 400mm then you have to go Olympus ...
 
Cliff

Sorry to be pedantic but you are not comparing like for like. The Olympus is a 50-200 lens, that becomes a 100-400 on a Micro 4/3 sensor. The Nikon is a full fat Full Frame sensor lens. If you are saying that the IQ from an Olympus 4/3 sensor is the same as a FF Nikon sensor then I'll eat my hat(s) but I don't think that you mean that..... and aperture settings will not be comparative due to sensor size. Look at equivalent apertures http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/454-oly502002835
 
Ive got an EOS-M that i carry about with the 18-55mm, my intention is to get the 22mm prime lens for it too (and the EOS adapter), the zoom is very good however. The image quality is exceptional really for the price they are now, despite coming from an view/SLR/rangefinder camera background using the screen alone is sort of like a mini view camera!

It also allows you to survey the whole composition in a different way than it does working with a 'look through' viewfinder, an interesting way of working, probably slows me down a bit too on the whole (not a bad thing for most photography), the only other drawback is there is nothing to hide behind when taking the photograph!
 
Cliff

Sorry to be pedantic but you are not comparing like for like. The Olympus is a 50-200 lens, that becomes a 100-400 on a Micro 4/3 sensor. The Nikon is a full fat Full Frame sensor lens. If you are saying that the IQ from an Olympus 4/3 sensor is the same as a FF Nikon sensor then I'll eat my hat(s) but I don't think that you mean that..... and aperture settings will not be comparative due to sensor size. Look at equivalent apertures http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/454-oly502002835

Hadn't got you down as being an argumentative person, and this is the photo room so it shouldn't really matter.

Yes, I would say that the image quality from the OMDEM1 is just as good as the image quality from the Nikon D4 or DF. I currently have the DF and the EM1 and they are both 16 megapixels give or take. The 35-100 zoom is an F2 and the diagonal on the sensor is roughly half the DF, so the DOF is nearer the equivalent of F4 on the 70-200 constant aperture F4 lens as opposed to the 70-200 F2.8 Nikkor. I would say that the 35-100 is very much a "Full Fat" lens with comparable IQ to either the Nikon or Canon F2.8 constant aperture zooms covering the same range

Anyway, that wasn't the point of my earlier reply. You were suggesting that there are no Mirrorless cameras with Telephoto lenses, and I was pointing out that there are very good Telephoto and Zoom lenses for the MFT system. In addition, the OMD-EM1 works just as effectively as the Mirror Box wearing E5 when it comes to shooting with any of the Four Thirds lenses.

A few years ago it was fair to say that Full Frame cameras like the Nikon D3 were quite a bit better at controlling noise at higher ISOs than cameras like the E3 or EP1, however, the latest Micro 4/3rds are just as good as the DX and FX sensors at ISOs of 3200 or less, and you only need full frame if you're shooting in extreme low light with slow lenses.
I love the results you get with the X100, far better than those that I managed. I'd be interested to see what you could do with the EM1 and some old Four thirds glass. There's plenty out there to play with at prices somewhat below brand new Fuji glass.
 
Cliff

Your reply is taken in good spirit, and I didn't intend to to argumentative! (and thanks for the compliment regarding my X100 images, I have to say that this forum is the main reason my photography has improved).

There are some simple rules of physics here, and higher ISO's (effectively sensor gain) really do work better on a bigger sensor (physical size). And yes modern sensors are getting better and better, however you only need to look at the latest Nikon FF (read Sony!) sensor offerings to see how far high ISO is progressing. But the laws of physics dictate that a FF 16MP sensor (assuming that it doesn't have interpixel gaps the size of the moon) will receive more light at a given aperture setting than a 16MP micro 4/3 sensor, approx 4 times as much light). That said given comparable optic quality and a comparable subject/lighting then in many circumstances the IQ will be comparable. And I agree high ISO situations are few and far between for most photography.

I've never really looked at the Olympus MFT camera options, I went DSLR -> X100 -> other Fuji Mirrorless. Maybe they are something that I should investigate a little further, one thing I have discovered though is that you need to be very careful with legacy glass, as its often not capable of resolving sharply at all aperture settings, that said there is some known quality glass from Olympus, Minolta and others which can be had at very cost effective prices. Yes, the Fuji glass on the whole is expensive, but Fuji have a very good reputation for optics (I work in machine vision, and their C-mount offerings are amongst the best), and none of the X-mount lenses I've used have disappointed.

Back to the OP's original point the EOS-M (especially with the 22mm pancake or kit zoom), may be a good lightweight option and the EF adapter will allow him to use his existing Canon lenses, but given the fact that he is in 'sunnier' part of the world than most of us, he may find the lack of viewfinder a challenge in some lighting conditions.
 
No worries Mr P

Now, back to sensor performance a little bit. One of the following was shot on a Nikon D3 at ISO3200 using the 200-400 zoom at the 200mm end

The other one was shot on the OMD-EM1 using the 50-200. Its pretty obvious to my eyes that the D3 starts to struggle at ISO3200 in relatively OK but dim daylight. By comparison, on a day which was totally grey but using a reflector to fill light on the subjects face the OMD-EM1 does an excellent job with skin tones


Andy Pink
by cliffpatte, on Flickr


Lucy
by cliffpatte, on Flickr

I think the bokeh is quite a bit better on the digital Zuiko too

Anyway, IMO the OMDEM1 outperforms the D3 in terms of ISO noise, and is similar to the DF at ISO3200 and below.

ironically Lucy is carrying the G1 I mentioned earlier :)
 
Ive got an EOS-M that i carry about with the 18-55mm, my intention is to get the 22mm prime lens for it too (and the EOS adapter), the zoom is very good however. The image quality is exceptional really for the price they are now, despite coming from an view/SLR/rangefinder camera background using the screen alone is sort of like a mini view camera!

It also allows you to survey the whole composition in a different way than it does working with a 'look through' viewfinder, an interesting way of working, probably slows me down a bit too on the whole (not a bad thing for most photography), the only other drawback is there is nothing to hide behind when taking the photograph!

Do you think that the quality of the pictures is similar to Canon 60d?

Arye
 
A word of caution on that site as it states that the 60D is weather sealed for use in extreme weather, and I really don't believe that to be true!

Weather sealed
Shoot in extreme weather

And it says that the Canon 5d MK1 costs 2900$.

But it is good to see most of the details they are comparing one camera to another.

Arye
 
Comparing mirrorless to DSLRs I don't think you can generalise. I have an EOS 5D II and while the image quality from the full frame sensor is fantastic the autofocus is complete and utter rubbish being slow and, most of the time, inaccurate. I would never recommend one of these if fast accurate focussing is a core requirement. On the other hand I have a Lumix GF3 - an inexpensive mirrorless with a touch screen - and the focussing is fast and fuss free.
 
I've owned Canon cameras & lenses for many years, but due to an unpleasant dose of rheumatoid arthritis I began to find my EOS 5D Mk II & its lenses increasingly cumbersome & heavy. I took a bit of a leap in the dark and sold the lot (including a large range of 'L' series), replacing them with a Fuji X-Pro1 and, so far, their 10-24, 55-200, 18-55 & 18mm lenses.

I'm more than happy I made the change; the Fuji system's far lighter, more useable and has excellent quality - for my purposes better all round. As a consequence I take a lot more photos.
 
Just try the 7D Mk 2 for autofocus that is unbeatable. Got mine yesterday, utterly astonishing. Low light performance, for a crop body, incredible.
 


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