MDAC First Listen (part 00101000)

[sprint]

Wow - hold on here! where did the extra £400/500 plus come from?

I certainly don't know the cost of the FWC at this stage - it might even be as as low as GBP200 to GBP250 with the extra HQ PSU + IPS touch screen, really I'm waiting upon the quotes, I just racked across China last week to meet the vendor.

We might even be able to open an installment option to help spread the cost burden, but I'm not sure of the webpage / database infrastructure involved in doing this.

Its already been suggested that IF - READ IF we proceed directly to the FWC, then we would find a way to cover the cost of the "unwanted" salvaged units, and maybe we will have to factor repaying those who decide to drop out of the project (as we moved the goal posts) - it might still be a cheaper route then engineering two variants, when one has no long term future due to lack of demand if the majority where to decide on the FWC.

The trouble is I really have no idea of the split between keeping the current MDAC format with its physical limitations, or going the FWC route, once I have a better idea of the costs involved then we can put the question to a vote

If it ends up only a handful wishing to stay with the current MDAC format then the answer is obvious - but I REALLY don't know smiley face to try and keep it friendly.

Its only a discussion at this stage and your POV is very much taken into consideration - but you have still not answered my question to help me understand, is it the extra cost or the larger size of the FWC you object too?

John

The £400/500 has been mentioned in many previous post by members and since you own costings this morning have varied between £300/400 and then £200/250 it seems clear that the likely real cost is unknown?

I have tried to send you a PM, but you box is full, to respond to the question you asked about my reasons.

 

[JohnW]

So no development cost like was mentioned a few weeks ago?

Not if we work with the MiniDSP guys who will design the front panel PCB + Software.

 

[Sibbers]

Perhaps we need the following polled...

-size preference (full width/half width)
-priority (sound quality/cost/reduced size/minimal delay)

 

[flambeur]

Just a thought:

If the primary issue of those people who are worried about size is the unit's width - would a different form be possible to suit everyone (same width but higher/longer)?

 

[JohnW]

I'm not opposed in principle to the full width chassis. But the timing issue is very important. Is the Fwc really going to be delivered by the end of the year?

The FWC lightens the design load as the miniDSP team design the front panel + UI software - leaving me only to design the HQ PSU - not a big task.

So FWC would arrive basically at the same time as the MDAC chassis version would have - TARGET for Christmas, or very soon after, the ball is rapidly rolling now.

 

[Stunsworth]

...it seems clear that the likely real cost is unknown?

At this stage yes, as John has said he needs to work out an estimate to replace the 'guesstimates'.

 

[JohnW]

Lets say the bare chassis costs US$160

Front IPS panel + electronics US$60

HQ PSU US$70

Packaging etc. US$30

10% wastage US$32 (New vendors so I do worry about quality).

Total US$352, lets say US$370 to leave headroom, so we would be looking at an extra £238....

The above numbers look very practical....

So really £250 looks good.... but the biq question is the price from the chassis vendor...

OH, guess we should also amortize the "salvage unit cost" repayment in this cost £370 x 34 / 200 = £63 so a total of £300 for the FWC - gosh if pushed we might be able to cheapen in areas subject to chassis cost being close to my guesstimate, we will know early this week hopefully.

 

[JohnW]

Just a thought:

If the primary issue of those people who are worried about size is the unit's width - would a different form be possible to suit everyone (same width but higher/longer)?

Or stand the FWC vertically.... Higher / Longer sounds ugly...

 

[Steven Toy]

The FWC lightens the design load as the miniDSP team design the front panel + UI software - leaving me only to design the HQ PSU - not a big task.

So FWC would arrive basically at the same time as the MDAC chassis version would have - TARGET for Christmas, or very soon after, the ball is rapidly rolling now.

Although I'm not a technical expert (as one individual keeps reminding me...), over the years I've had the power supplies upgraded in CD players (three times, you arranged for one of them and I think it was a case of just changing the transformer, an added offboard PSU to a Naim CD player and Anthony Matthews building me a very nice, stiff linear supply to replace a wallwart for a Bel Canto CD2), in my preamplifier although that was just a case of isolating existing components in a separate box and making a dedcicated power lead to carry 6 separate voltages iirc and in my power amp which had a new, bugger and better transformer and new power capacitors fitted.

All were sonically beneficial but none were particularly complicated beyond using decent components - caps, regs and transformers and isolating them from the more sensitive electronics.

You are not talking months of research and design, are you? Just better hardware that benefits from having more space.

 

[Rune]

John

The £400/500 has been mentioned in many previous post by members and since you own costings this morning have varied between £300/400 and then £200/250 it seems clear that the likely real cost is unknown?

I have tried to send you a PM, but you box is full, to respond to the question you asked about my reasons.

You forget to consider that with the FWC you can sell you MDAC which you will get around £300.
So the real cost of going FWC will be marginal.

 

[JohnW]

Although I'm not a technical expert (as one individual keeps reminding me...), over the years I've had the power supplies upgraded in CD players (three times, you arranged for one of them and I think it was a case of just changing the transformer, an added offboard PSU to a Naim CD player and Anthony Matthews building me a very nice, stiff linear supply to replace a wallwart for a Bel Canto CD2), in my preamplifier although that was just a case of isolating existing components in a separate box and making a dedcicated power lead to carry 6 separate voltages iirc and in my power amp which had a new, bugger and better transformer and new power capacitors fitted.

All were sonically beneficial but none were particularly complicated beyond using decent components - caps, regs and transformers and isolating them from the more sensitive electronics.

You are not talking months of research and design, are you? Just better hardware that benefits from having more space.

No, the PSU design is easy and adds a 115V / 230V option which is also useful.

 

[JohnW]

You forget to consider that with the FWC you can sell you MDAC which you will get around £300.
So the real cost of going FWC will be marginal.

If we repay the salvaged units owners then we would keep the salvaged MDACs, sadly, I doubt time will ever permit me to repair the units and sell them on.

 

[Bob L]

OH, guess we should also amortize the "salvage unit cost" repayment in this cost £370 x 34 / 200 = £63 so a total of £300 for the FWC.

Thanks John, for remembering these.

The thread has been compared to a rollercoaster more than once, and so far I’ve been happy with the ups and downs. However, it now feels as if the rollercoaster is heading for an Alton Towers moment.

Something has to give. It is very clear that there is a majority who favour the FWC, but I’m one of those who cannot use it: I do not have space, and I am at an age where I may have to downsize even more. Thus, with considerable disappointment, I think I need to walk the plank/ do a Captain Oates (choose your metaphor).

However, I, and the others in this position, have put £400 in to this project which most of the rest of the punters are going to enjoy for at least my lifetime. This should be incorporated into the total cost of the FWC(in addition to the scrapping of the scrap MDACs, one of which is mine), but I guess you can only do that once you know how many have to bail out.

Sadly,

Bob

 

[Steven Toy]

I think more thought should be given by the naysayers to FWC once they've got over the throwing-the-teddy moment.

Is a full-width case (just the width) REALLY such a deal breaker?

S/h MDACs fetch what the FWC would cost so it isn't really a financial issue beyond short-term cash flow but this could be ameliorated by offering instalments as John has suggested.

(Poor John gets to bear the cash flow brunt of this.)

 

[Sibbers]

In the instance that FWC is the path with which the project takes, is there still any possibility that those who wanted the smaller form factor can have their MDACs upgraded with the various capacitor and resistor packages you have done for other in the past?

I think a number of people may have joined wanting this but instead hopped on to the MDAC2 project as that option became unavailable to them. Dunno just a thought. Might seem a like a bit of a booby prize to some, but reading Bob's farewell above I'm all choked up and teary eyed. *sniff* what a guy *salutes*

 

[Rune]

If we repay the salvaged units owners then we would keep the salvaged MDACs, sadly, I doubt time will ever permit me to repair the units and sell them on.

John I am not expecting you to. I would rather have you spend time on more important thing.

My reply was to sprint who says that the cost of going FWC would be very high but he never substract the £300 he will get when he sells his MDAC.

 

[Steven Toy]

In the instance that FWC is the path with which the project takes, is there still any possibility that those who wanted the smaller form factor can have their MDACs upgraded with the various capacitor and resistor packages you have done for other in the past?

I think a number of people may have joined wanting this but instead hopped on to the MDAC2 project as that option became unavailable to them. Dunno just a thought. Might seem a like a bit of a booby prize to some, but reading Bob's farewell above I'm all choked up and teary eyed. *sniff* what a guy *salutes*

It might just be a hissy fit that passes.

Iirc, the mods to the MDACs (I had one done and it's very nice, thanks) were a complete ball-ache for John to do.

 

[Rjpcardoso]

If we repay the salvaged units owners then we would keep the salvaged MDACs, sadly, I doubt time will ever permit me to repair the units and sell them on.

But surely we can sell the remote, screen, cases, etc.
So in reality it will not be 63£ but even less than that?

One of the pfm members could be encharged of makinf a deal with them to take that pain from you.

Just another thought.

 

[Sibbers]

It might just be a hissy fit that passes.

Ha! That's not how I do hissy fits, mine are much more eventful. As far as I'm concerned, Bob just fell on his sword for what he see's as the greater good. All hail Captain Bob I say!

 

[Steven Toy]

Ha! That's not how I do hissy fits, mine are much more eventful. As far as I'm concerned, Bob just fell on his sword for what he see's as the greater good. All hail Captain Bob I say!

He really doesn't need to take one for the team!