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Mac Mini with Naim Ndac V NDX

As a general warning - I was given a Mac Mini, but not the PSU, I bought a cheap PSU from eBay that worked fine, but I was never entirely happy with the SQ. I can't remember the exact order of my experiments, but I ended up buying a Linn DS, and that sorted out the problem, until one day I plugged the Mini back in, in the same room, and things went off again. My then Naim system was quite obviously affected by noise from the cheap PSU. Has I realised this, it would have saved me a lot of money. So, introducing a computer PSU into the wiring of a Naim system may not be a good idea.
 
anotherdom said:
I use exactly this arrangement, with the TeddyXPS powering the NDAC, and the NDX using its internal power supply. It's very good, though I've not compared it to any of the other recommendations on this thread.
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I would even do a comparison between NDX and ND5XS if only used as transport. I'm pretty sure the difference is extremely small, if nonexistent.
 
JemHayward said:
As a general warning - I was given a Mac Mini, but not the PSU, I bought a cheap PSU from eBay that worked fine, but I was never entirely happy with the SQ. I can't remember the exact order of my experiments, but I ended up buying a Linn DS, and that sorted out the problem, until one day I plugged the Mini back in, in the same room, and things went off again. My then Naim system was quite obviously affected by noise from the cheap PSU. Has I realised this, it would have saved me a lot of money. So, introducing a computer PSU into the wiring of a Naim system may not be a good idea.
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One solution for people worrying about computer power supply noise is to use an optical connection. 100% isolation from electrical noise - at least worth trying.
 
Julf said:
One solution fro people worrying about computer power supply noise is to use an optical connection. 100% isolation from electrical noise - at least worth trying.
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I think my problem was mainly mains interference, rather than via the digital link, as I was using optical at times.
 
JemHayward said:
I think my problem was mainly mains interference, rather than via the digital link, as I was using optical at times.
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Would the Naim system be that sensitive to power line noise? That means it would be affected by any phone chargers and other wall warts in the house. If so, i definitely advise against powerline network extenders.
 
It's not a system that I have any more (not entirely for that reason). In those days Naim systems didn't seem to like mains filters, but also seemed to be sensitive to noise from power supplies - that could have been mains, RF or injected into the audio path. I also had to unplug my Lingo PSU when listening to the CDS, as it definitely affected the sound. I managed, eventually, to eliminate all SMPSUs from the system mains wiring, though two phone charges have crept back into the room, but my current system doesn't seem to be upset in the same way. Modern Naim systems may not suffer in the same way either. I also feel my bootleg Mac Mini PSU was particularly bad in that respect. I gave the Mini to my son, who found it upset his TV.
 
Julf said:
One solution for people worrying about computer power supply noise is to use an optical connection. 100% isolation from electrical noise - at least worth trying.
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Last time I used optical connection between my PC and Hifi was around 6-7 years ago. Then, the first M2Tech HiFace (USB to S/PDIF converter) was released. I had used ESI Juli@ professional audio soundcard with optical output until then. So I got the HiFace and that was a big step up in sound quality. Even the first generation USB bridge outperformed a professional sound card optical output by a clear margin. After that, I've updated my USB bridge four times and every time there's been improvement compared to the old one. So unless there's been a significant improvements on optical outputs on PC motherboards or professional audio cards, I'll stick with USB. I can't see how optical connection could outperform a dedicated USB solution.
 
Patu said:
I can't see how optical connection could outperform a dedicated USB solution.
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By providing galvanic isolation. If you find that USB (that doesn't provide ground isolation) provides better sound quality, it is an indication that electrical noise from the source is not an issue. Thus the only remaining factor is jitter - and that is not an issue if the DAC does buffering/reclocking.
 
Julf said:
By providing galvanic isolation. If you find that USB (that doesn't provide ground isolation) provides better sound quality, it is an indication that electrical noise from the source is not an issue. Thus the only remaining factor is jitter - and that is not an issue if the DAC does buffering/reclocking.
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You're over simplifying things.

I do have my USB bridge galvanically isolated from PC by this: http://intona.eu/en/products

Also, jitter does matter. All the noise inside PC can still affect the SQ, even with optical connection. Even more with coaxial or USB. Isolation is important but not everything which matters when it comes to sound quality of digital transport.

I use Naim DAC which certainly reclocks and buffers the audio signal and still, there's clear differences between different transports I've used with it.
 
Patu said:
I do have my USB bridge galvanically isolated from PC by this: http://intona.eu/en/products
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Does it also isolate the ground connection?

Also, jitter does matter.
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Can you please explain how that happens?

All the noise inside PC can still affect the SQ, even with optical connection.
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Can you please explain how the noise from the PC can affect the DAC over a galvanically isolated connection?
 
Julf said:
Does it also isolate the ground connection?



Can you please explain how that happens?



Can you please explain how the noise from the PC can affect the DAC over a galvanically isolated connection?
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Intona does the things mentioned on their website.

Unfortunately I can't. I can and will only use my ears to do the comparisons. I have no need for measuring things. In the end, only thing that matters is how I hear the music through my system. Numbers and figures on paper are meaningless to me.

Some thoughts about optical connection and jitter:

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/Toslink_Coax.htm
 
Ears are the only thing that counts. How anyone decides on kit using measurements and white papers is beyond me. Transports do indeed make a difference to these ears.
 
gary yeowell said:
Ears are the only thing that counts. How anyone decides on kit using measurements and white papers is beyond me..
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Fortunately it is not beyond those who design the stuff. Imagine where we would be if electronics were developed purely by "feel" and ear.
 
Julf said:
I see.

Yes - it talks about transmission jitter. Not about how noise in the source could somehow affect the DAC. Two very different things, and it is important to understand the difference.
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I never mentioned it affects DAC any way, but it can affect the signal going to the DAC and overall, it can affect sound quality.

Anyway, we clearly have a different kind of approach to these things. I use my own ears and judgement to select components to my system. If I write here about differences in sound quality, they're (of course) purely my own impressions which I've got by auditioning these components. As I wrote earlier, I don't do measurements to my gear.
 
Patu said:
I never mentioned it affects DAC any way, but it can affect the signal going to the DAC and overall, it can affect sound quality.
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So you think there is some change to the actual digital data?

Anyway, we clearly have a different kind of approach to these things. I use my own ears and judgement to select components to my system. If I write here about differences in sound quality, they're (of course) purely my own impressions which I've got by auditioning these components. As I wrote earlier, I don't do measurements to my gear.
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Yes, indeed a very different approach. My view is that audio systems are technical devices, designed by engineers applying scientific principles - and those principles can be understood. It is not black art or magic. To be able to make improvements in a system, one must understand the system and the causes of the issues.

When I say "designed by engineers" I am talking about the real design, not the throwing together of modules in a fancy box that some people call "design".

Hobbyists who only pursue their own pleasure can of course ignore those distinctions and do whatever brings them pleasure, but they would probably gain from a better understanding of their systems, and I thought that is what forums like this are for. I don't really learn anything from someone posting "I preferred X over Y", it is like reading someone write "I prefer yellow curtains over brown ones".
 
Julf said:
Hobbyists who only pursue their own pleasure can of course ignore those distinctions and do whatever brings them pleasure, but they would probably gain from a better understanding of their systems, and I thought that is what forums like this are for. I don't really learn anything from someone posting "I preferred X over Y", it is like reading someone write "I prefer yellow curtains over brown ones".
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Similarly I find posts about someone preferring X over Y to be not useful. That is one of the reasons I always request for more information on the differences. Descriptions such as warm, lean, separation, detail etc., these can serve as a guideline and can be quite useful. Nevertheless, ultimately it is the ears that will guide the listener to achieving the goal of a "better" sound. Some will feel yellow curtains to be nicer (better), some will find brown curtains to be more pleasant looking (better). It's the same with audio. Some like it warm (organic), some like it cold (separation, detail), some prefer to be somewhere in the middle.

There will be posts which will be useful. Not every post will show someone posting "I prefer X over Y".
 
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