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LP12 vs 1200GR

clownfish

clownfish

It's all in the details
Has anybody compared an early ‘80s LP12 Valhalla/Ittok LVII/pre cirkus to a Technics SL1200GR?

If I move from the LP12 what am I going to lose along the way?

I’ve read many comparisons but mostly it’s 1200G vs high spec LP12s or other earlier versions of the Technics vs myriad versions of the Linn.

it’s really tough to find a dealer who will allow me to try at home so I guess I may have to buy and return if I don’t like. Would love to get opinions from fishies that have compared before diving in.

FWIW, I have compared recently with an older DD and whilst I liked the timing/drive I felt the actual volume of music emerging was smaller. Certainly the soundstage was not so tall and imaging less precise.
 
I know people are extolling the precise timing of Technics, but you are presently well down the potential for the LP 12 in its 80's guise, and could do to hear a modern variant, to illustrate its potential. Many view it as a bottomless pit of upgrade costs, but sub chasis, bearing, and power supply upgrades would transform your LP12 into a different beast, and I've recently concluded that a proper LP12 has keel/Radikal/Karousel at its source, and lower spec variants don't cut it. Unfortunately these upgrades are not cheap, but you can always sell up and go different manufacurer/cheaper. like a Technics.
Personally, I couldn't stand looking at one, regardless of the build quality, and even if the sound was acceptable or not. I'd stick with the Linn, as you've alluded to liking its presentation, albeit in the old 80's form.
Essential relatively cheap, but significant upgrade would be a Karousel bearing, and then when affordable, a Kore sub chassis.
 
I've got a 1210GR and a pre-Cirkus LP12 (Stack Audio Tenor subchassis and top plate; Rega RB300 tonearm, rewired by Johnnie at Audio Origami, tungsten counterweight; Rega Exact cart; Norton Airpower power supply, DIY) and the best thing I could say is that hearing one for yourself in your own system in your own room really is the only way to find out whether it's the right move. System + room trumps everything anybody has to say about it, myself included. That said, here's my experience all the same.

My 1210GR is in my main system in the living room where it works in tandem with a pair of Tannoy Eaton Legacy speakers and my LP12 is in my bedroom where it works with a pair of Kralk Audio BC-30s (bass-lite bookshelf speakers that aren't a million miles away from old Kans; they're certainly not as squawky). The 1210GR is slightly bass-lite relative to the phat-bottomed LP12 and it just so happens that works better when it comes to my Tannoys + living room. Conversely, the LP12 is the right deck for using with my BC-30s in my bedroom as I want all the bottom end I can get through those speakers in order to get as much phantom bass as possible - you know, the bass that's not really there but you still get a good sense of it.

When it comes to the overall sound and room + system synergy my LP12 + BC-30s + bedroom and my 1210GR + Tannoys + living room are the permutations that work the best, no ifs or buts about it. However, I much prefer using my 1210GR because of its user interface as it were: push button stop/start; 45rpm at the push of a button; a cueing light; a lid that stays put when it's up, down or only halfway up; speed stability; pitch control; not to mention the fact that it's built like a tank and it'll see me out without breaking a sweat. I guess I'm pretty lucky to have two systems that do different things and so allow me to enjoy playing records on both decks.

But of course, you'll never know what it'll do for you and how it'll work in your system + room unless you get one somehow give it a go, so I say give it a go :)
 
At some point I’ll have to move the LP12 into a different room and it’s going to have to be placed on furniture or maybe an unobtrusive rack. When this happens I’m not at all convinced the LP12 will work for me so I’m not going to be investing more into it.

And the GRs are available at great prices just now so was thinking maybe now is the time for future proofing. I know you are all correct and I need to hear it in my own system. I will have to buy and then return if it doesn’t work for me I guess.

Was hoping for something to make it easy like I did it and it was best thing ever because … or it was hopeless … :D

Oh and looks wise I can’t make my mind up. Some days I think the technics looks great others it’s the LP12 all the way.

Thanks for input. More to ponder now.
 
Lots of great impartial advise here from follow PFM'ers.

Nice to see the Linn and Technics camps playing along nicely on day 1 of the new year :)

In terms of system synergy and balance, we might be able to help a little bit more if you tell us what the rest of your system is. For example, if you said Linn Kan 1s and Naim CB amps then you'd probably be better off sticking with the LP12.

Ref support concerns, pretty sure it was a while before the 'light and rigid' approach became a well known benefit (sometime in the 80s?) so don't see why it won't convincingly play music on a sideboard, although perhaps won't be quite as engaging. Graham Chapman seems content enough back in the '70s :D

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It's hard to explain the musical strengths of your 80s deck in a way that we all understand but I would expect it to make more sense of the music. Clearly many people don't experience it that way so you're back at square one in needing to home dem yourself really, esp with all the system / room matching that other members have already raised.
 
From an aesthetic point of view, I think it looks great. It's surely a classic design by now, albeit completely different from an LP12, but a classic design nonetheless. As long as its looks are agreeable the next step must be getting one in for a home dem, even though buying one with the option to return it may be the only way to do that.
 
I've heard Windhoek's GR and no question, it's a very good record player. Especially for the money. If I had a grand to spend and no intention of upgrading I'd probably buy one and I'd certainly recommend them to anyone looking for a fit and forget high quality record player.

The LP12 is a very different animal. Not just the aesthetics and ominous upgrade options but the sound is different. Better is a matter of taste but the Linn has a way with subtle timing cues and the interplay between musicians that few other sources match in my opinion. If you 'get' this aspect of the LP12 you might not enjoy the Technics as much.

Having said that, there are lots of people who've swapped their LP12s for a Technics and are delighted with them. In fact I'm not sure I've seen anyone raving about upgrading their Technics to a Linn! If you don't want to up the spec of your LP12 and are looking for a simpler record player, I'm going to bet you'd be delighted with the GR.
 
Charlie_1 said:
In terms of system synergy and balance, we might be able to help a little bit more if you tell us what the rest of your system is. For example, if you said Linn Kan 1s and Naim CB amps then you'd probably be better off sticking with the LP12.
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A good point. Analogue chain is LP12, Luxman 505 II ux, Proac D20R. However, when the move occurs speakers may need to get smaller. If so more likely I’ll move to Neat Iota Alpha or similar than back to Kans. I say back because I have owned them with CB Naim and loved it all, but nowhere near as much as I live and appreciate the effortless ease with which the current system delivers.

Charlie_1 said:
Ref support concerns, pretty sure it was a while before the 'light and rigid' approach became a well known benefit (sometime in the 80s?).
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I have tried the LP12 on light support like a Lack table but my floors are bouncy and it was not good for sound quality. Of course this might differ if I end up with concrete floors. Might :D
 
Mr Pig said:
I've heard Windhoek's GR and no question, it's a very good record player. Especially for the money. If I had a grand to spend and no intention of upgrading I'd probably buy one and I'd certainly recommend them to anyone looking for a fit and forget high quality record player.

The LP12 is a very different animal. Not just the aesthetics and ominous upgrade options but the sound is different. Better is a matter of taste but the Linn has a way with subtle timing cues and the interplay between musicians that few other sources match in my opinion. If you 'get' this aspect of the LP12 you might not enjoy the Technics as much.

Having said that, there are lots of people who've swapped their LP12s for a Technics and are delighted with them. In fact I'm not sure I've seen anyone raving about upgrading their Technics to a Linn! If you don't want to up the spec of your LP12 and are looking for a simpler record player, I'm going to bet you'd be delighted with the GR.
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It’s hard to argue with much of that.

I could live with a 1200, but imho it does nothing to the music that isn’t done better by a good CD player and any non-dreadful CD. That simply isn’t true of even a supposedly modest LP12, for all its imperfections.

Having recently heard a Bardo and compared it to Stiletto/Keel/ Radikal/ Skorpion, I’d also say that you can have all that a direct drive does well without losing any virtue of a good LP12, but the price for that combination of pluses is very different from that of a 1200GR.
 
clownfish said:
If I move from the LP12 what am I going to lose along the way?
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So much depends on the specific LP12, how well it is set up, what it is standing on etc. Assuming it is a good one standing on something good (e.g. an Ikea Lack or wall shelf, certainly not a heavy loaded equipment rack) then I suspect you will end up disappointed.

There are some things the Technics (any of them) are unbeatable at; they are silent and their pitch/timing is as good as it gets. If one views a turntable purely as making a platter go round at the right speed, silently, and with sufficient torque to negate any variation in stylus load etc, then Technics won this one half a century ago. Really to a ‘game over’ level.

The problem is there appears to be far more to it than that. As stated many times I was sufficiently curious to actually buy a SL1200G (the expensive one), and whilst I have nothing but respect for these things it does with regards to pitch, timing and noise floor, which are genuinely flawless, I didn’t get on with it at all. It just sounded like ‘high mass’ to me, i.e. dead in the water the way I hear massive belt-drive decks, massive MDF speakers etc. It doesn’t ‘sing’ the way a good LP12 or vintage idler does. I learned to accept my TD-124 will never be as quiet, will need ongoing maintenance, but that is the price of the life and soul I demand. The (iron sub-platter) TD-124 has the absolutely rock-solid high-torque pitch and timing of the Technics, so really I was only comparing noise-floor with ‘life’ in my dem. For my priorities the 124 had the ‘fun’ aspect, the G didn’t.

I know this isn’t the comparison you are looking for, but it is the best I have and I include it in the context that, despite its flaws, the LP12 is my favourite non-idler turntable. I really like a good LP12 of the vintage of yours. My gut feeling is you’ll end up admiring the SL1200 rather than loving it. My money is firmly on the LP12 here despite the Technics obvious superiority on paper.

PS FWIW I think the SL1200 MkII and its derivatives are the best of that breed. They are just astonishingly good value for what they bring and are likely unbeatable in their price class. The GR may well be even better as it still isn’t expensive and I doubt there is a £1k turntable that would clearly beat it. The problem with the dearer ones such as the G is they are competing in a very strong area of the market. There are a lot of very good new turntables in that price bracket, and many absolute classics available second hand.
 
I did a blind test between an SL1210G (£3k) and a Majik/Akkurate hybrid LP12 (£5.6k). There were no obvious differences in the sound that I could consistently pick. It wasn’t a 100% fair test because the cartridges were different, and there was no way to level match (limitations of dealer demo).

I preferred the user experience of the Technics and it looks stunning in black. I do love the classic looks of the LP12, and my heart was sort of hoping that it would give something special to the sound that would justify the extra cost, but it did not (within the limitations of a relatively short dealer demo).

I am slowly putting together a second vintage system (NAC42.5/NAP110) and am thinking of getting an older spec LP12 to go with this system.
 
I just don't get the Technics direct drive thing at all. I owned two back in the mid to late 1970s, an SL1300 and an SL1200 with an SME 3009 fitted. Both were a million miles away from the performance of my Garrard 401. I have also serviced and repaired the broadcast SP10, both with shoebox power supply and also the pro rack mounted power supply version. I could not see, or hear what all the fuss was about! I can only put this down to peoples lack of experience of hearing proper turntables designed and set up to play music, as opposed to what Tony correctly said, as in Technics make a turntable to spin a record at precisely the correct speed. As Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue used to say: "You cannot make a good sounding turntable solely out of metal..."

There has always been a question mark over the quality of the tonearms fitted to the Technics range. Something you are stuck with going with this option.

I would stick with the LP12. At least it's musically communicative and you have numerous optional upgrade paths including changing tonearms should you wish to upgrade in the future. The tonearm is also an extremely important part of the turntable sound, as is the cartridge.
 
My biggest regret was trading in my Thorens TD 150 for a Technics DD of the day….can’t remember the model number but the year as around 1977….. I found it flat and uninteresting in its presentation although the amp was a Quad 33/303. It all changed when I bought the Naim flat earth system….LP12/42/110/Kans…..music suddenly burst out….
 
G T Audio said:
As Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue used to say: "You cannot make a good sounding turntable solely out of metal..."
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I think there is something in this. As a turntable gets 'better', in technical terms, the more I'm inclined to not warm to it. Upgrading is tricky. I do not know why the LP12 has such an enjoyable way with rhythm and timing but I suspect that absolutely perfect speed stability is not it.

The medium itself is so heavily compromised that it requires a similarly broken machine to get it to work. Perfection is not on the menu but that's ok because it often turns out that it's not what we enjoy the most anyway.
 
Each to their own. I didn’t regret letting my LP12 go for Well Tempered and I didn’t regret letting my Well Tempered go for Technics.

Having said that, financial incentive was part of it and financial disincentive is a good reason to enjoy what I have. I was also fed up with the Linn/Naim upgrade treadmill.

Nonetheless, I run the Techie with a few tweaks, a £1K phono stage and a DVXX2. Never once have I thought the deck outclassed by these components. Even the arm, once fitted with the KAB damper, is just fine IMO.

A fluted LP12 is a lovely thing and it may be true that I’m essentially listening to a very good CD player with a few clicks and pops. I’m okay with that.
 
I purchased a Technics SL-1200 MK2 in very good condition several years ago to see what all the fuss was about. I replaced the stock tonearm cable with an old Linn Ittok cable and replaced the bulb in the pop up light. I mounted a Linn Klyde on the tonearm and placed it on an Archidee floor stand. It sounded very good and was very pleased having spent all of $125 for it.

I was curious how it would stack up against a Rega Planar 2 of the same vintage so I made recordings of each using the same phono cartridge. I also put the recordings out on the Steve Hoffman forum for fun as the two brands are continually discussed. Using the Linn tune dem, I found the Rega more musical. If someone was looking for an alternative to Linn, I would certainly consider Rega.
 
John said:
I purchased a Technics SL-1200 MK2 in very good condition several years ago to see what all the fuss was about. I replaced the stock tonearm cable with an old Linn Ittok cable and replaced the bulb in the pop up light. I mounted a Linn Klyde on the tonearm and placed it on an Archidee floor stand. It sounded very good and was very pleased having spent all of $125 for it.

I was curious how it would stack up against a Rega Planar 2 of the same vintage so I made recordings of each using the same phono cartridge. I also put the recordings out on the Steve Hoffman forum for fun as the two brands are continually discussed. Using the Linn tune dem, I found the Rega more musical. If someone was looking for an alternative to Linn, I would certainly consider Rega.
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Really interesting post, in fact the whole thread is as I'm considering either changing from my LP12 to something else or spending money on upgrading it. The Linn is a cirkus, 1993 model. I'm not sure which way to go atm... something vintage appeals, as does something simple to use and maintain.

Would a P8 be roughly "equivalent" to a cirkus LP12?
 
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