LP12 Spindle
- Thread starter Vinny
- Start date
Tony L
Administrator
Agreed, even the LP12 bearing with a big flat-spot I chucked out sounded fine to my ears! I'm now used to vintage idler decks and the main bearing is the least of ones worries when it comes to noise. By saying that my TD-124 has a fancy Schopper main bearing that cost as much as a pretty decent turntable on its own!
This is now testing my memory. I think it was around 1987 Linn changed the bearing to the black liners with the black oil. All I can say is I was 33 years old at the time. I had noticed the black deposit on not only my then newish Lp12 at the time but also on my friends deck. It was also visible on the dem. decks in the shop. They were all relatively new. I then asked Martin the next time I was at the factory and that was the explanation I was given. I took it as gospel. I was told not to try and remove it as it may damage the point. I can assure you all these decks were running original oil and fairly new.. Never flushed out or changed. I believed that explanation as it was coming from the horses mouth so to speak. Nitrous could be right. with his explanation. All I know is it never seemed to cause any detriment. The main point relating to the Ops. post is do not attempt to use any abrasive on the polished surface. I have my newish Lp12 running downsairs but I am reluctant to remove the inner platter just to check for a black blob of oil burnt or otherwise. Maybe someone else would like to have a look. It is possible they have changed the formulation since 1987 anyway.
Bob.
Bob.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
How do you know Robert? Do you mean you've never heard an obvious scraping noise from the speakers - well, err, no - obviously not; the bearing noise would be catastrophic by then. However, when bearing noise is reduced the effect is quite obvious.
Robert
Tapehead
Reduced from what to what though?
I know because I've used decks with very low noise, eg new form the box LP12 and technics DD where the noise spec is state of the art. On switching to 'lesser' decks such as the Rega Planar 3, or a Dual with less well engineered bearings, there is no perceptible degradation. Record surface noise always dominates, or motor noise if they aren't well isolated.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
How do you mean 'there is no perceptible degradation'? I would counter that there is quite obvious degradation in that detail retrieval is clearly reduced. I wouldn't agree that record surface noise dominates either. For example, I've just bought the four 45RPM reissues by Brian Eno and on these recordings you can clearly hear the tape hiss kicking in and out and even altering in level depending on the multitracking - really obviously -- you can also hear the hum suddenly drop out as the track ends, but the record is still playing.
Tony L
Administrator
Whilst we are on the subject of LP12s I notice the standard pressed steel subchassis has been changed completely with a 'Majik' variant that extends to the full armboard (link). So what's that like? The last Linn I had was about 17 years ago and was a Cirkus spec deck with a DIY Geddon and Zeta, so I'm well out of touch with them now! How does the Majik alter the presentation from the familiar Cirkus?
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Robert
Tapehead
If I take a quiet pressing from a deck with better than -80dB rumble/noise (such as a Linn or better technics DD), and then play the record on a Rega or Dual (which have a lesser noise spec at around -73dB), or the old AR XB I have here, there is no perceptible change in the audible noise level. Noise from the stylus record interface dominates and masks all *else.
You can argue about subjective factors such as detail and sound 'quality' - that's not the issue.
Bearing noise is a non issue for all but the most cost-cut hi-fi decks. Has been for many decades.
* By 'else' I means noise occurring within the turntable moving parts assuming good motor isolation. I don't mean noise within the recording.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
3db reduction from what level?
Barry williams
Banned
Tony,
Give Peter a call and book yourself and your misses a nice day and night out.
He's not that far up the road from you.
You will have a great time.
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YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Robert, look here http://www.audioflat.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=687 and listen to the recordings Andrew has done - the difference is blindingly obvious IMO - listen to the silent groove recordings too. Honestly, I respect your opinion but on this you are absolutely wrong I'm afraid and, frankly, I'm really surprised you believe this.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
It's relative not absolute, 3db reduction from the original level.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Exactly. So 3db down on a noisy bearing will be noticeable but if you can`t hear the bearing noise in the first place another 3db down will not be noticed.
Hence the question.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
So what is the Tranquility getting rid of then? I have some run-out track recordings where you can hear and see the reduction in noise.
Tony L
Administrator
This is an interesting one as the subjective gains may not even be related to noise, it might have more to do with altering what Linn somewhat pretentiously refer to as the 'closed loop' and slightly reducing or altering the energy transmission/vibration from the cartridge back into the core assembly of armboard, chassis, bearing and platter. The problem with turntables is it is very easy to alter the sound, but somewhat harder to establish exactly what it was that caused the change. I'd cite VTA as an example, my theory is most subjective reports of huge improvements have little to do with it and a lot to do with arm collar bolt tightness, altering the arm-cable alignment/dressing etc!