Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
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paulfromcamden
Baffled
Odd isn't it. Whenever private schooling is questioned on PFM I'm a bit taken aback at the vigorous defences from otherwise chilled members.
"We're just ordinary folk who sold some internal organs so Tarquin can go to a nice school and not have to mix with the ruffians from the council estate" kind of thing.
People feel really strongly about it.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
It buys top grades that are then unavailble to kids in the state sector because the number of top grades is static. That has a knock on effect downwards throughout the grading system.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I hadn't considered that. A friend used to teach in a private school and got fed up with it because of the constant agro from parents of not very academically gifted kids demanding better grades.
I completely get parents wanting to give their kids the best start in life. And I understand people having concerns about the quality of local schools. But organising the education system in a way that advantages children from more affluent families just doesn't seem ideal.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Are you saying that the number of, say A*, at a particular subject is capped and that Public schools get priority for their students to be graded first and so get a greater share of the grades?
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Indeed. It was all laid bare in the pandemic. My eldest is doing GCSEs this year and we've discoved that the teachers are teaching to about a grade 6 level (9 = A*, so 6 is a B) in her subjects and leaving the higher material. Predicted grades are defined by postcode not ability, with the teachers adding a 'don't worry we expect you'll do better' bit.
It’s a tricky subject. Lots of people don’t send their kids to fee paying school but do have the means to live in a posh area with an outstanding school. Is this any different? Still buying advantage but is seen as perfectly ok & IMV has a far bigger impact upon inequality.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been very lucky with schools for my kids, purely by dint of being within the catholic sector. I don’t live in a swanky postcode or have an outstanding primary within catchment. However, if I had to I probably would ‘buy’ advantage for my children if the school options were terrible. Many parents would.
I’ve always been a labour voter but appreciate that some will make choices when it comes to their kids. A colleague at work is a proper lefty but due to a move north his kids are in a fee paying school. He’s comfortable but not awash with cash, will he welcome paying 20% more?
My final point on this is that peer group is key, parents are terrified about kids falling in with wrong crowd. We don’t always make logical decisions.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
No. I'm saying they get higher marks owing to the extra money spent (class sizes, specialist tutoring etc) which distorts the distributions of grades. That raises the boundaries for the top grades. The boundaries need to be static, in the public domain and attainable at all the various levels.
Ponty
pfm Member
They do. I have friends who are genuinely worried about it. The policy will only widen the gap between state and public schools. Nick Ferrari destroyed some momentum loon (James somebody or other) on LBC. He expects public schools to keep their facilities open to other schools etc if charitable status is lost. Hilarious! Of course, wealthy lefty types just buy their way into schools by paying more for a house in the best school catchment area. Maybe these houses should incur an additional tax. After all, it’s buying advantage.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
It's funny how those areas being full of 'wealthy lefty types' vote Tory at election time. Very strange.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Thought you were against government interference in market forces. If there is a market for private education it should not be subsidised with tax advantages.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Class sizes are absolutely key. Private schools are only ‘better’ because they can resource small class sizes.
Ponty
pfm Member
They’re paying twice as they’re not using the state system they’ve paid for and paying fees out of taxed income. The same should apply to universities and nurseries of course, which are also selling advantage. IIRC overseas students won’t pay VAT, sounds a properly thought through policy…
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Ah OK, understood. If the boundaries were static would anyone send their children to a Public School?
laughingboy
pfm Member
This film by Peter Oborne starts with Starmer but develops into a lament about how politics in Britain, if it is working at all, isn't working in the interests of the British people.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
I think they would (for the extra spend per pupil - about £10k and rising last time I looked.) At universities the full classification regime is published in detail, here is York's, for example. There is very little room to operated outside that unless the candidate has illness etc.
Even if you can buy your way to better grades it must not impact on anyone else - surely that is a principle.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Ah, was just about to post that! It's a very good video from Oborne (aka the only honest Tory) covering:
Starmer's lies (well, duh!)
The narrowing of political debate in the UK
The complicity of the press in political lying
Tony Blair's "big lie"
The corrupting influence of money on politics
As Oborne says near the end, we need a moral reformation in our national life. The Tory party stinks and has ruined the country in multiple ways, yet all Starmer offers is continuity.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
No, they are not paying for state system through taxes.
Spraggons Den
pfm Member
How so when the subject being debated is Labours plan to remove the charitable status of private schools. Similarly the intention to remove the non-dom tax loop hole and not forgetting their adherence to our net zero targets? Not as radical as I, you and others on the forum would like for sure however still stands in contrast with the Tories
laughingboy
pfm Member
Droodzilla was summarising Oborne's argument. Clearly, Starmer is not the same as Sunak and the Labour Party is not the same as the Conservatives but Oborne says that there are two worrying choices Starmer has made that constrain his ability to act in the interests of the British people. Oborne says that Starmer has chosen to indulge the press and he has also chosen to raise money from the very wealthy. These choices set the boundaries of what Starmer will be able to do, and ensure that real power - where the government believes that its existence depends on your support - remains in the same hands, not in the hands of the electorate.
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