Buy yourself a big bag of salt, to be taken as required - dosage, one pinch
FAR less hassle and grief.
So, gentlemen all, please, let's drop the tit-for-tat bickering?
Houdini - anyone?
- Thread starter Vinny
- Start date
Buy yourself a big bag of salt, to be taken as required - dosage, one pinch
FAR less hassle and grief.
So, gentlemen all, please, let's drop the tit-for-tat bickering?
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Let's keep the ad-hom at bay please.
Arghhh, the bane of my life! I'm interested to read your review come the end - I predict an objective write up.
Amber Audio
This is the Day
Better than daytime TV I bet
Might have a go with one here when I get the urge, be easy enough to compare with/without as I have 2 Techys, and a couple identical headshells/AT carts plus a stage with multiple inputs.
Marco
AoS Representative
Thank you, Andrew. And hopefully, going forward, in terms of knee-jerk accusations of shilling, an approach of 'innocent until proven guilty'?
For the record, and just to be crystal clear, I can assure you that I have far better things to do with my time than shill for the Funk Firm - perish the thought! Even though I'm friendly with both Matt and Arthur.
If I rate a Funk product (or ANY product) and choose to discuss it, it's because *I* think it's worth doing so because it's a good product, that's all. There is ZERO in it for me, in terms of personal gain.
My interest in posting on ANY thread here will be because I have some (or often considerable) experience of some aspect of the thread topic, which you'll see is confirmed by my recent posts, involving mains optimisation. Technics T/Ts, and this.
Anyway, I just wanted to make that clear, and thanks
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Perfect - I have duplicate bits and bobs, but not a complete "set", so changing things is the only option.
Amber Audio
This is the Day
In a hushed tone:
I’m in the middle of comparing DACs at the moment. I am intending a swap round of my carts to different arms soon cos a new “best” cart is on the cards.
Look forward to you writing up your assessment once the wayward tag is soldered into submission.
Did I say A (singular) tag? Still one channel down, so off again - second tag had come adrift (shrink sleeve is a very mixed blesing on cart' tags).
Up and runnng for about an hour now so I obviously need quite a bit more time with the Houdini as intended.
First impression though - a huge difference but difficult to explain in a way that I am happy with SO FAR.
Voices and instruments are very clear and incredibly detailed, as if each has been teased out and is genuinely playing separately in front of me, but there seems to be lots of infill missing. Is that music? Is it something I actually like?
More listening required, and a change back to just bolts and the cart' on the headshell.
Up and runnng for about an hour now so I obviously need quite a bit more time with the Houdini as intended.
First impression though - a huge difference but difficult to explain in a way that I am happy with SO FAR.
Voices and instruments are very clear and incredibly detailed, as if each has been teased out and is genuinely playing separately in front of me, but there seems to be lots of infill missing. Is that music? Is it something I actually like?
More listening required, and a change back to just bolts and the cart' on the headshell.
Marco
AoS Representative
Sounds promising so far, but could you please post a close-up picture of what you've installed, so we can be sure that the Houdini's been fitted properly?
One of the most immediately obvious gains should be greater bass depth, along with the improved detail you're hearing.
So PICS, pretty please!
The Houdini needs to be set-up *100% perfectly^ to deliver its magic (and with it, the partnering cartridge's full sonic/musical potential).
Make sure when you install or uninstall it, that you adjust (and optimise) VTA and VTF accordingly.
One of the most immediately obvious gains should be greater bass depth, along with the improved detail you're hearing.
So PICS, pretty please!
The Houdini needs to be set-up *100% perfectly^ to deliver its magic (and with it, the partnering cartridge's full sonic/musical potential).
Make sure when you install or uninstall it, that you adjust (and optimise) VTA and VTF accordingly.
I haven't posted a picture yet, at all, ever, so don't hold your breath. Not that any picture could ever prove correct installation as so much is beyond pictures. It is correctly installed though, except that it is a through-hole cart' mounted on a Houdini intended for tapped hole cart's, but the mounting logic is identical.
It is mounted on a Hadcock GH228, so mounting could not be easier in that respect.
To get an accurate idea of change +/- Houdini, I need a few hours with it on, and then strip everything to go back to just SS bolts. Another day or so as yet.
It is mounted on a Hadcock GH228, so mounting could not be easier in that respect.
To get an accurate idea of change +/- Houdini, I need a few hours with it on, and then strip everything to go back to just SS bolts. Another day or so as yet.
Marco
AoS Representative
Well, if the pic is close-up enough and clear enough, and you know what you're looking for, you can get a reasonably good idea if it's been correctly installed. However, I take your point.
Why the reticence with posting pics - don't you know how? If not, I can explain how to do it, or simply mail me the pics and I'll post them on your behalf. Anyway, good luck and keep us posted!
Why the reticence with posting pics - don't you know how? If not, I can explain how to do it, or simply mail me the pics and I'll post them on your behalf. Anyway, good luck and keep us posted!
Marco
AoS Representative
You're hard work, you know that?
Yes, but doing so helps *others* who may be interested in trying a Houdini, plus pictures also make the thread more interesting, visually. You don't need to go to all that palaver you described. Just snap a few pics on your smartphone and upload them.
That's what I did, with the pic I posted earlier. You're not entering a photography competition!
Yes, but doing so helps *others* who may be interested in trying a Houdini, plus pictures also make the thread more interesting, visually. You don't need to go to all that palaver you described. Just snap a few pics on your smartphone and upload them.
That's what I did, with the pic I posted earlier. You're not entering a photography competition!
OK, all the faff over, apologies for the delay………………..
Just to repeat – Pink Link LP12, Hadcock GH228 (which has tapped holes for the cart’ bolts, which is important to remember) and AT OC7 (which has through-holes for the cart’ bolts). Tracking was 1.5g throughout. (The OC7 is around 30 years old and cost me around £100 back then.)
The Hadcock is reasonably new with a SS armtube, so probably has an effective mass of around 9-10g – figures online of around 6g are probably from a long way back when the GH228 armtube had an anodised aluminium armtube option. This is supposition though, so bear in mind.
For the uninitiated, a hugely over-simplified description of the Houdini is two “rigid” plastic plates with a compliant layer holding the two together. The top plate bolts to the headshell, the bottom plate bolts to the cart’. Nylon bolts are used that you trim to suit using a simple spacer that is provided. BE WARNED – depending on how the stylus guard (which ought to be fitted when trimming the nylon bolts) is designed and fits, trimming the bolts to hold the cart’ can be “challenging”.
Mass of the Houdini here is 1.67g, mass of OC7 – 7.8g, mass of full length nylon cart’ bolts – 0.26g, mass of SS cart’ bolts – 1.15g.
I ran through a series of changes starting (and finishing) with SS bolts holding the cart’ in the headshell, done up just tight, maybe eighth turn beyond fully run-down. The idea being to understand what just the active bit of the Houdini is doing.
First change was bolts only, change to the untrimmed 25mm nylon bolts that came with the Houdini. What I should have done was add M2.5 washers on the top of the headshell, on the nylon bolts, to leave the CBW in the same position, but I didn’t. So, with less mass in the bolts, the effective mass overall was less.
Next, I added the Houdini to the TOP of the headshell, located onto the nylon bolts. This obviously had the effect of adding the same effective mass as the Houdini would add when fitted as intended. IT DID NOT increase effective mass by 1.67g – effective mass is a calculation that includes the position of the CBW as well as the mass at the headshell. If anyone wants to do a dirty calculation of the increase in effective mass, I can provide some crude measurements of distances and masses.
Next – the Houdini was fitted as intended, and the first real snag with the design arises. You cannot use it with a headshell with tapped cart’ bolt holes; you cannot mount the Houdini to the headshell as the threads in the headshell and the Houdini are never going to be on the exact same pitch. Just as well that I had a spare headshell with through holes….
Then back to SS bolts and headshell only.
Differences? Listening test only, nothing else, based on too little time with each change, all were acceptable short-term, although I did spend quite a bit longer with the Houdini on top of the headshell and as designed. Longer term? Pass, who knows?
Moving to the nylon bolts increased the balance towards mid-highs. To my ears, things like detail were unchanged. Sort of fitted the “tending to bright” mould associated with AT cart’s.
Moving to the Houdini on top of the headshell, the upper mid’s and highs were almost overwhelmed by very detailed lower mid’s and bass. Actually rather impressive for a while but then it became like listening to a sort of hollow recording – the longer I listened, the weirder it got. All still very detailed. (In fact, I had to revert to my preferred Hypersapce and even the CDP at this stage to get some real music, which rather destroyed the flow of Houdini listening trials.)
So much for the inter-play of tonearm effective mass, nylon bolts and cart’ suspension!!
Houdini as intended – the first pleasant surprise was that the overwhelming bass had gone. That apart – immediate impression - a huge difference in what I hear compared to no Houdini. But bloody difficult to describe in a way that I am satisfied with. Voices and instruments are very clear and incredibly detailed, really very sharp and crystal clear, as if each has been teased out and is genuinely playing separately in front of me, but there seems to be lots of infill missing. Is that music? Is it something I actually like?
A couple of hours into listening and either I am getting tuned-in to the Houdini, or perhaps some working of the compliant layer has changed it slightly – “bedding it in”? Whatever it is, the music is beginning to gel into a whole.
A quick change back to SS bolts and no Houdini (unlike the fiasco mounting the Houdini) – the music is definitely more joined-up, but mids and highs are less discernible, less well-defined. Bass, for me, is there in bigger doses, but again, less well defined. The whole thing is “warmer”.
A very interesting exercise and the differences are not slight, and to be honest, why would anyone expect them to be? Very much well worth a listen. All, of course, purely based on the set-up here.
So, £300 is a lot of money for something with an unknown life – picking up hints along the way here, that is going to be close to what many PFMers would see as the price they’d pay for the cart’!
How about (a) PFM club(s) of 5-6 people to buy one and pass it around and if all are unconvinced, sell on, splitting the loss, or someone likes what it does and buys all the shares after all have had a listen, at the original price? Just a thought.
Just to repeat – Pink Link LP12, Hadcock GH228 (which has tapped holes for the cart’ bolts, which is important to remember) and AT OC7 (which has through-holes for the cart’ bolts). Tracking was 1.5g throughout. (The OC7 is around 30 years old and cost me around £100 back then.)
The Hadcock is reasonably new with a SS armtube, so probably has an effective mass of around 9-10g – figures online of around 6g are probably from a long way back when the GH228 armtube had an anodised aluminium armtube option. This is supposition though, so bear in mind.
For the uninitiated, a hugely over-simplified description of the Houdini is two “rigid” plastic plates with a compliant layer holding the two together. The top plate bolts to the headshell, the bottom plate bolts to the cart’. Nylon bolts are used that you trim to suit using a simple spacer that is provided. BE WARNED – depending on how the stylus guard (which ought to be fitted when trimming the nylon bolts) is designed and fits, trimming the bolts to hold the cart’ can be “challenging”.
Mass of the Houdini here is 1.67g, mass of OC7 – 7.8g, mass of full length nylon cart’ bolts – 0.26g, mass of SS cart’ bolts – 1.15g.
I ran through a series of changes starting (and finishing) with SS bolts holding the cart’ in the headshell, done up just tight, maybe eighth turn beyond fully run-down. The idea being to understand what just the active bit of the Houdini is doing.
First change was bolts only, change to the untrimmed 25mm nylon bolts that came with the Houdini. What I should have done was add M2.5 washers on the top of the headshell, on the nylon bolts, to leave the CBW in the same position, but I didn’t. So, with less mass in the bolts, the effective mass overall was less.
Next, I added the Houdini to the TOP of the headshell, located onto the nylon bolts. This obviously had the effect of adding the same effective mass as the Houdini would add when fitted as intended. IT DID NOT increase effective mass by 1.67g – effective mass is a calculation that includes the position of the CBW as well as the mass at the headshell. If anyone wants to do a dirty calculation of the increase in effective mass, I can provide some crude measurements of distances and masses.
Next – the Houdini was fitted as intended, and the first real snag with the design arises. You cannot use it with a headshell with tapped cart’ bolt holes; you cannot mount the Houdini to the headshell as the threads in the headshell and the Houdini are never going to be on the exact same pitch. Just as well that I had a spare headshell with through holes….
Then back to SS bolts and headshell only.
Differences? Listening test only, nothing else, based on too little time with each change, all were acceptable short-term, although I did spend quite a bit longer with the Houdini on top of the headshell and as designed. Longer term? Pass, who knows?
Moving to the nylon bolts increased the balance towards mid-highs. To my ears, things like detail were unchanged. Sort of fitted the “tending to bright” mould associated with AT cart’s.
Moving to the Houdini on top of the headshell, the upper mid’s and highs were almost overwhelmed by very detailed lower mid’s and bass. Actually rather impressive for a while but then it became like listening to a sort of hollow recording – the longer I listened, the weirder it got. All still very detailed. (In fact, I had to revert to my preferred Hypersapce and even the CDP at this stage to get some real music, which rather destroyed the flow of Houdini listening trials.)
So much for the inter-play of tonearm effective mass, nylon bolts and cart’ suspension!!
Houdini as intended – the first pleasant surprise was that the overwhelming bass had gone. That apart – immediate impression - a huge difference in what I hear compared to no Houdini. But bloody difficult to describe in a way that I am satisfied with. Voices and instruments are very clear and incredibly detailed, really very sharp and crystal clear, as if each has been teased out and is genuinely playing separately in front of me, but there seems to be lots of infill missing. Is that music? Is it something I actually like?
A couple of hours into listening and either I am getting tuned-in to the Houdini, or perhaps some working of the compliant layer has changed it slightly – “bedding it in”? Whatever it is, the music is beginning to gel into a whole.
A quick change back to SS bolts and no Houdini (unlike the fiasco mounting the Houdini) – the music is definitely more joined-up, but mids and highs are less discernible, less well-defined. Bass, for me, is there in bigger doses, but again, less well defined. The whole thing is “warmer”.
A very interesting exercise and the differences are not slight, and to be honest, why would anyone expect them to be? Very much well worth a listen. All, of course, purely based on the set-up here.
So, £300 is a lot of money for something with an unknown life – picking up hints along the way here, that is going to be close to what many PFMers would see as the price they’d pay for the cart’!
How about (a) PFM club(s) of 5-6 people to buy one and pass it around and if all are unconvinced, sell on, splitting the loss, or someone likes what it does and buys all the shares after all have had a listen, at the original price? Just a thought.