Grammar Schools?

[Seanm]

Unlike the UK, Northern Ireland (which operates a separate Education Authority) never got rid of grammar schools, and as a result has some of the best secondary schools in the UK. These schools routinely send kids from ordinary working-class backgrounds to Oxbridge. (It's one of the oddities of Norn Iron that Belfast, a working-class town, has these brilliant schools and a first-rate university and nowhere for the products of these institutions to go, apart from away from Norn Iron).

I never went to one of these schools (didn't get to do the 11-plus because of my odd birthdate, of all things), but I'm glad they exist and keep doing an outstanding job. I got to go to university because of a particularly stubborn headmaster, who, refused permission by the Education Department to do the NI version of O- and A-level GCEs, outflanked it by enrolling us for London University GCEs.

In the poisoned atmosphere of Northern Ireland, the schools often do an outstanding job of reconciling the communities. One of them, Rainey Endowed in Magherafelt, Co. Tyrone, has always educated both Catholics and Protestants. One of my university friends, who went on to become Rainey's senior chemistry teacher, had in one of his classes a kid whose RUC father had been murdered by the IRA and another whose IRA father was interned in Long Kesh.

I suspect your experiences were exceptional. I went to a grammar school in Northern Ireland. Many of my friends there had siblings who for one reason or another failed the 11-plus, and went to secondary schools. Their respective career paths were exactly those you would expect in a country where manufacturing has been destroyed: the professions on the one hand, service industry, unemployment, in some cases early death and worse on the other. Fate determined at 11 years old.

 

[stephen bennett]

So with the probable return of selective schools that discriminate against low income families, leaving the EU and an apparent return of the British empire, what other parts of albion's idyllic past does the panel think the Tories will revive?

Stephen

 

[Seanm]

So with the probable return of selective schools that discriminate against low income families, leaving the EU and an apparent return of the British empire, what other parts of albion's idyllic past does the panel think the Tories will revive?

Stephen

Hunting HUMANS set to become big business for the super rich within next 100 years

(I don't really have a problem with this, so long as the various parties are selected on a genuinely meritocratic basis.)

 

[Paul R]

OK. On reflection 'Elitism' might not be the best term as it is too vague/broad. But your defnition of 'eliteism' seems more akin to a meritocracy. Different thing.

A meritocracy needs to lead to elitism, if it is to mean anything. But the elitism that rewards who rather than what is indeed to be deprecated.

The pronouncements so far give the game away IMHO. 'More parental choice' What does that mean? We are supposed to be looking to improve the life chances of young people, not massage the feelings of their parents.

There's probably residual naïve belief that parents care about what happens to their children.

I want to see the law changed to allow state schools to be selective, which can mean very many things. I don't want to see a return to the 11+ where middle class dull children get tutored to the edge of reason to 'pass' and then struggle in the grammar and the alternative upper school is avoided by all that can buy their way out.

Personal observation of the local comprehensive and the over-the-county-line grammar is that the comprehensive doesn't have very high expectations. Its sixth form is dying and most students who get good GCSEs are now trying to go elsewhere, like for example, the local grammar, for A Level. This is a 'good' school.

Paul

 

[tones]

I suspect your experiences were exceptional.

I agree, Sean, and every night I mentally light a candle for St. Norman McNeilly and the Boys' Model. Wee Norman simply wouldn't lie down, and he won (the NI Ed Authority finally gave up and let him do the NI GCEs).

 

[Mullardman]

A meritocracy needs to lead to elitism, if it is to mean anything. But the elitism that rewards who rather than what is indeed to be deprecated.

Sort of agree.

There's probably residual naïve belief that parents care about what happens to their children.

Of course you jest, but tell me how more 'choice' addresses that? In a situation of limited (and conditional) supply, the 'choice' is at best als limited and conditional, at worst, merely theoretical.

I want to see the law changed to allow state schools to be selective, which can mean very many things. I don't want to see a return to the 11+ where middle class dull children get tutored to the edge of reason to 'pass' and then struggle in the grammar and the alternative upper school is avoided by all that can buy their way out.

Personal observation of the local comprehensive and the over-the-county-line grammar is that the comprehensive doesn't have very high expectations. Its sixth form is dying and most students who get good GCSEs are now trying to go elsewhere, like for example, the local grammar, for A Level. This is a 'good' school.

Paul

Unless you state what selectivity you want....

It is my understanding that selection in the comprehensive system now simply exists (or should) within schools.

The whole 'good v bad school' thing is what drives this debate and it is solving this, rather than seeking legalised ways for the better off to opt out, which lies at the root.

Mull

 

[matthewr]

So with the probable return of selective schools that discriminate against low income families, leaving the EU and an apparent return of the British empire, what other parts of albion's idyllic past does the panel think the Tories will revive?

Grammar school maps will be reprinted to make Britain Great again and the reasons for "the pink bits" will be part of the core curriculum. You will also be able to use this phrase as code for genitals when it's time to engage in the marital ghastliness without fear of being accused of being Normative Caucasianism by an SJW.

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Tories want to re-introduce them/ increase numbers of Grammar Schools.
'To increase choice'. Eh?



I see nothing in the Tory pronouncements so far that will lead to anything more than a simple extension of elitism.

Discuss.

Mull

Pray what exactly do you mean by "elitism"?

laurie

 

[jackbarron]

Went to British Army schools in Germany. Passed the 11-Plus and also an exam which got me a GLC grant to go to a mixed minor public boarding school in Surrey.

I guess this was a grammar, or are public schools different? It now costs £33,000 a year to attend.

Got expelled in the lower sixth and ended up in a College of Further Education aka tech college. Passed some A-levels, went to the LSE for a degree and then Oxford University to do research.

I always got the impression that grammar school kids were snobs. I dislike the idea of elitism. If a kid works hard then hopefully s/he will do well. Anything that stands in the way of this should be ditched.

Kids should have equal opportunities. Full stop. They shouldn't have to pay for education, the state should provide it.

With Blair introducing university fees, the idiocy of academies and free schools, the whole education system now seems to be completely f***ed by the neoliberals.

As for Gove, him and the current Tory education spinstress should be kicked right up the umlaut.

Jack

 

[ks.234]

There is a basic question that must be asked at every suggestion of selection in schools; What do you do with those who are not selected?

Unless the answer is to widen selection so that everyone gets selected, you will be left with a system that is fractured, divisive, elitist, and broken, just like it is now.

 

[Laurie Saunders]

PS my brother did a proper old fashioned apprenticeship with ICI and worked there and then BNFL with a solid career and continuous employment (and a nice final salary pension!). He was one of the very last to be able to take that route and I would suggest that the disappearance of this option is more of an issue in terms of better life outcomes than grammar schools.

Problem is...Labour under Tony Blair made it a target for 50% (not a contrived figure of course..) to go to university

We now have a situation here virtually any job worth having requires a degree...even worthless degrees

When I was at school, it was possible to reach the top of the legal , engineering, and caring professions, and others, by doing in-house, on the job training with final professional exams

Now, unless one has a degree, one is branded a failure....that was not the case in the 60`s.......a classic example of : the road to hell being paved with good intentions...a trap that all politicians , but especially Socialist ones , frequently fall into

laurie

 

[doctorf]

Grammar schools are great for the 'socialist elite' but not for the great unwashed.
from Guido Fawkes
Jeremy Corbyn – Attended a grammar school. His son went to a grammar school.
John McDonnell – Attended a grammar school.
Seumas Milne – Sent both his son and daughter to grammar schools.
Diane Abbott – Attended a grammar school and sent her son to a private school.
Jon Trickett – Attended a grammar school.
Grahame Morris – Attended a grammar school.
Paul Flynn – Attended a grammar school.
Emily Thornberry however failed her 11 plus…

 

[Laurie Saunders]

There is a basic question that must be asked at every suggestion of selection in schools; What do you do with those who are not selected?

Unless the answer is to widen selection so that everyone gets selected, you will be left with a system that is fractured, divisive, elitist, and broken, just like it is now.

What do you suggest?

Laurie

 

[Bob McC]

So with the probable return of selective schools that discriminate against low income families, leaving the EU and an apparent return of the British empire, what other parts of albion's idyllic past does the panel think the Tories will revive?

Stephen

Pounds, shillings and pence.

No doubt there are enough idiots who'd clamour for that.

 

[Bob McC]

Problem is...Labour under Tony Blair made it a target for 50% (not a contrived figure of course..) to go to university

We now have a situation here virtually any job worth having requires a degree...even worthless degrees

When I was at school, it was possible to reach the top of the legal , engineering, and caring professions, and others, by doing in-house, on the job training with final professional exams

Now, unless one has a degree, one is branded a failure....that was not the case in the 60`s.......a classic example of : the road to hell being paved with good intentions...a trap that all politicians , but especially Socialist ones , frequently fall into

laurie

It was the professions themselves that chose to remove the traineeship path to the top and introduce the degree bar.

 

[Bob McC]

The final word must go to the head of Ofsted.

Every new grammar school creates 3 secondary moderns.

 

[Mullardman]

Pray what exactly do you mean by "elitism"?

laurie

In this context, I meant that those who are best off will continue to contrive to remain so, to the detriment of the equally deserving. However, I have already said above that elitism is maybe too open a descriptor.

Despite having gone to a Grammar school myself, I believe that the fairest way would be to persevere with the comprehensive system for at least the first three years of secondary education, so that the binary nature of the 11 plus is finally done away with and selection for entry to GCSE or whatever courses post year 9 is based upon overall performance rather than a '1 off' at 11, when performance may not completely reflect underlying capability/potential.
Something like that actually happened in my Grammar school. We all dsid pretty much the same for the first 3 years and were only then 'streamed' into 4 streams of which I was in the second from top. In reality this meant that I was not entered for a second modern language, or latin. Otherwise, pretty much the same as the top lot.

Mull

 

[matthewr]

We now have a situation here virtually any job worth having requires a degree...even worthless degrees

When I was at school, it was possible to reach the top of the legal , engineering, and caring professions, and others, by doing in-house, on the job training with final professional exams

That's slightly out of date though. My nephew and many of his generation opted not to do University and come out with a meh degree and £50k of debt. Instead they are increasingly choosing to get a job at 18 and work and either do some form of professional qualification (e.g. accounting) or some other form of in work education.

 

[Mullardman]

Pounds, shillings and pence.

No doubt there are enough idiots who'd clamour for that.

I'd have a tanner bet on that...

 

[cutting42]

'tis interesting how so many of pfm's most vociferous "equality for all" advocates benefited from the very thing they decry.