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Full range loudspeakers i.e. Single driver...any love?

I have a pair of Eclipse TD 508s, and a pair of Mark Audio Tozzi 2, both single driver loudspeakers, and I think they are amazing. Incredibly 'real', in the sense of immediacy and directness and lack of coloration within their bandwidth limitations. I use one pair as nearfield monitors on the computer system, and one pair do duties for the TV - vastly better SQ than any soundbar I've heard. In both cases, I don't need high SPLs, and can overlook the lack of low bass.
 
I seem to remember you using single driver speakers at Scalford a few years back.

Bandor/Pentachord/Jordan-Watts or something of that ilk?

They were Pentachord A speakers and actually have two drivers in parallel, so they’re not strictly ‘single driver’ ;)

Seriously though, these come with an active crossover module and are designed to be used with a subwoofer so they are not “full range”.
 
You are talking about a 3-way speaker with a 12" mid-woofer which happens to have a wider than usual operating range; it has the potential to surpass the performance of a single-diver speaker but not that of a conventional 3-way.

But my point is that it is no longer a single-driver/1-way speaker.

Why would it not surpass a conventional 3 way?

Seems to me it has advantages over such- no cabinet, no crossover ( other than the cap on the tweeter), and the vast majority of the frequency range is covered by a single driver.
 
Why would it not surpass a conventional 3 way?

Seems to me it has advantages over such- no cabinet, no crossover ( other than the cap on the tweeter), and the vast majority of the frequency range is covered by a single driver.

It has disadvantages too: a 12-incher is too big for high frequency (re)production, a single driver spanning such wide range will produce more HD and IMD than if optimally band-passed, the off-axis response will beam bestially from 1kHz requiring a whizzer and a extremelly narrow directivity tweeter which doesn't exist (though it would benefit from a waveguide with limited success), 1-5kHz is up by more than 5dB and 5-10kHz is up by more than 10dB requiring a notch filter to flatten response... Not having a crossover in a multi-way speaker is a bad thing.

SOV-12-250TC-FQ-071117.png

Fane 12-250TC - Usable Frequency Range (-6dB) 45 Hz - 17 kHz

FC-152F01TC-FQ-071117.png

Fane 12-300TC (whizzered) - Usable Frequency Range (-6dB) 50 Hz - 15 kHz
 
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Why would it not surpass a conventional 3 way?

Seems to me it has advantages over such- no cabinet, no crossover ( other than the cap on the tweeter), and the vast majority of the frequency range is covered by a single driver.
A conventional design uses drivers optimised to cover the low, mid and high frequencies. They tend to achieve the best that can be done in terms of (technical!) sound quality within budgetary and similar constraints.

Stretching a midrange driver to cover the low and high frequencies compromises the design significantly not only for the high and low frequencies but also for the midrange. To cover the low frequencies the cone needs to be large and needs to move a significant amount in order to displace enough air to be loud enough. To cover the high frequencies the cone needs to be small and light. Some serious compromises have to made if the cone of a wideband driver is going to work to some extent and we can certainly forget any question of working well.

What tends to be done is to make the driver a bit too small for a woofer, with too small a displacement for a woofer, with too light a coil for a woofer and with too light a cone for a woofer. The low frequency response will be too quiet and not deep enough but apart from these significant failings OK. The light cone will resonate over most of the passband which is not a good idea in general but is necessary in order to have reasonable output through the midrange and into the high frequency range. As the frequency is raised the inner part of the cone moves while the outer part progressively remains largely stationary apart from some resonant motions. The resulting resonant ragged response is part of the characteristic sound of wideband drivers that is not present in anything like the same degree in competent multi-driver speakers. Some PA speakers have a similar characteristic sound due to their use of light cones for reasons of high efficiency.

As the frequency is raised and increasingly only the inner part of the cone moves the directivity narrows. This is another characteristic sound that differs from that of most multi-driver speakers. However, in this case if not too pronounced it may well be more of a positive than a negative when listening to music in typical rooms. Panel speakers like Quad electrostatics often have a similar directivity characteristic.

Having a single cone for low and high low frequencies will create relatively high levels of distortion as the low frequency motion modulates the high frequency motion. This will be more pronounced at higher SPLs where wideband drivers are usually limited and for lower frequency extensions where again wideband drivers are usually limited. Adding a sub and removing the low frequency motion from the main speakers cleans up the midrange and is one of the significant benefits of adding a subwoofer. A single cone for the full frequency range is not a good idea when it comes to distortion.

A single sound source may have some desirable characteristics compared to non-coaxial multi-driver speakers. Most multi-driver speakers have their drivers aligned in the vertical plane leading to there not being any significant differences in the usually more important horizontal plane compared to a wideband driver. In the vertical plane however the multi-driver speaker will generally have constructive and destructive interference in the crossover regions for the off-axis radiation leading to a degree of comb-filtering being present in the reflections off the ceiling and floor. It is an advantage but a modest one which is also shared by coaxial multi-drivers which are likely to technically outperform a wideband driver in other respects.

If the speaker with a wideband driver is modestly priced, you're not bothered by a lack of low frequencies, listen at quiet rather than standard levels, have a preference for the narrowing directivity, perceive the ragged resonant response as exciting, etc... then they could be worth a listen.
 
About 15 years I built a pair of speakers using Ted Jordan JX92S drivers, a small full-range driver in a thin and compact transmission line hardwood cabinet. I've been listening to them every day since, in my office system, nearfield. I've owned a lot of speakers in my time, but very few of them are as spot on in the midrange as these.

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/new-speakers-for-sideshowbob-the-easy-way.13307/
Good thread that, Ian. Good to know you’re still enjoying them but does the‘office system’ mean a relegation? Also, are you still using the original dishcloths?
 
The main system has been humongous Tannoys for a long time now Alex. Good question about the dishcloths, no idea if they've fallen out or not :) Hope you're well old chap.
 
The only application of a Lowther unit I've heard that sounded good was Beauhorn... the ones with the humongous wooden "door knob" phase plug present. Impressive in fact. The remaining 3-4 times I've heard various Lowthers I thought them so bad they made Linn Kans seem like Quad ESL's!! One pair, actual Lowther enclosures and slightly larger than BC1's, floor standing, had less bass than something like LS3/5a's and kind of squawked and screeched their way up the rest of the range...
 
Sorry, Ian, should have remembered the Tannoys. All fine here (but a bit pissed off social distancing seems to have ended; I liked no people, no traffic, no traffic wardens etc). You too I hope.
 
What about Manger speakers? Not single full range driver but the Manger HF is 80 Hz – 40 kHz and they supplement with LF woofer so no crossover in the conventional frequency spots.
 
I have a pair of Eclipse TD 508s

I've just got a pair of Eclipse 510ZMk2 in for review. I was previously quite skeptical about full range drivers, but these are superb. Very rich and revealing, and great as near field monitors. They need some care to get the system synergy right and they are exceptionally sensitive to any changes, but they really repay the work. I'll be doing a full write up on HifiWigwam soon.
 
It has disadvantages too: a 12-incher is too big for high frequency (re)production, a single driver spanning such wide range will produce more HD and IMD than if optimally band-passed, the off-axis response will beam bestially from 1kHz requiring a whizzer and a extremelly narrow directivity tweeter which doesn't exist (though it would benefit from a waveguide with limited success), 1-5kHz is up by more than 5dB and 5-10kHz is up by more than 10dB requiring a notch filter to flatten response... Not having a crossover in a multi-way speaker is a bad thing.

SOV-12-250TC-FQ-071117.png

Fane 12-250TC - Usable Frequency Range (-6dB) 45 Hz - 17 kHz

FC-152F01TC-FQ-071117.png

Fane 12-300TC (whizzered) - Usable Frequency Range (-6dB) 50 Hz - 15 kHz



The tweeter cap originally was a 1uf, this left a dip in the response, so this was changed to 2.5uf which gave a much better result. Don't think they measure too badly myself-

veUOnYM.jpg


Ignore the bumpy stuff below about 100hz, its room nodes.
 
The tweeter cap originally was a 1uf, this left a dip in the response, so this was changed to 2.5uf which gave a much better result. Don't think they measure too badly myself-

veUOnYM.jpg


Ignore the bumpy stuff below about 100hz, its room nodes.

Looks pretty bad for 20db steps.
 
The tweeter cap originally was a 1uf, this left a dip in the response, so this was changed to 2.5uf which gave a much better result. Don't think they measure too badly myself-

veUOnYM.jpg


Ignore the bumpy stuff below about 100hz, its room nodes.

It's better than I expected, although the vertical scale is a bit too wide. You could try 50dB (perhaps 40 to 90dB).
 
Ah, an admission they might not be so bad after all. :)

I really like these. I’ve messed around with OB’s for years, ending up previously with an active four way setup.

Most box speakers sound coloured in the bass to me. To my ears most sound unnatural in some way. I think it’s the dipole nature that makes OB’s sound more like live music, so they just sound more natural.

It just makes more sense to me to do away with as many crossover components as possible ( and their concomitant phase issues), have a driver that can cover as much of the frequency range as possible with the minimum of compromise, and use suitable drivers at either end for the frequency extremes.
 
The measurements were carried out at a friend’s house, in his living room. I don’t have the wherewithal here to measure again.
 
Could someone explain how more crossover components causes phase issues? I don't get it.
 


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