Flexible and home working and custom and practice

[Darren L]

Blimey, when was this? 1950s?

2011

 

[snowflake]

I've worked for home for years now, I have become far to feral to integrate in an office environment.

S

 

[MJS]

For me, it is the interaction that is important. I think that management teams understand this. Anyone who has been through agile training will have learned that the most effective communication method is face-to-face conversations. I don't see how new people can be trained and integrated effectively if everyone works remotely.

In my last role this was drilled into us time and time again. Except that most of the team I worked with were in Los Angeles and us being London based meant that we'd have 30 mins of overlapping office time each day to get all our meetings done in. As it had to be remote this was a lot easier at home because you don't mind that extra half an hour when necessary, but when it cuts into your commute time and you can't get an earlier train it really grates. I used to love it when the clocks changed on different weeks as we'd get an extra hour of overlap.

 

[tiggers]

I do get that some people like the face to face interaction and probably right it is broadly the most effective form of interaction in terms of getting things done, but things are changing and as our older generations retire and the younger ones take over I think the effectiveness will level out and possibly even shift towards online meetings and interaction. I have long been an advocate for working remotely and using online tools to interact, when Covid hit the company I was doing a lot of my work for had to work remotely and surprise, surprise everything worked just fine and we actually were more productive... I had been banging on to them for years about this and it was nice to be proved right about something... as like everyone some of my ideas prove not to be quite so successful

In my job I deal with a lot of different industry sectors and when we moved to remote working in lockdown it was noticeable how easily IT and technology companies found remote meetings and the likes compared to older more traditional engineering companies for instance... the difference of course is that IT companies often work with teams in different countries and locations so are used to Teams/Hangout/Slack/Skype etc. In time this will become the norm (I hope) and the world will be more productive because of it, but it's going to take a few generations... humans are not good at change!

 

[paulfromcamden]

In my last role this was drilled into us time and time again. Except that most of the team I worked with were in Los Angeles and us being London based meant that we'd have 30 mins of overlapping office time each day to get all our meetings done in.

I've done that too - with a team spread between London, NY and Tokyo. With IM and video it worked really well. My colleagues in Tokyo would handover to me first thing and we'd chat from about 8:30am to 10am then in the afternoon I'd catch up with my colleague in NY and handover any ongoing issues. It's a pretty common way of working in fintech where you have a single team providing round the clock support for systems in different regions.

Communication was actually a lot better than it is in my current role where everyone is in the office but there's a tendency for people to become siloed. Good communication really isn't about the geography or having people in the same room.

 

[bor]

Even when we are together in the same office, we still hold our meetings via Teams.

I can't remember the last time there was even an attempt to have a live meeting, so why all the drama about remote working?

 

[gavreid]

In my work you wouldn't want to be in the same building as many of them, never mind the room...

 

[paulfromcamden]

why all the drama about remote working?

For all the stuff about effective working and face-to-face communication I think a lot of it comes down to an assumption that people working from home are slacking.

A colleague told me that over lockdown she'd work in the morning then spent the afternoon gardening. I'm in two minds about that. It's obviously not what her line manager would want to hear but on the other hand if she really has completed all her work for the day by lunchtime there doesn't seem much point her sitting at a screen twiddling her thumbs.

 

[stevec67]

I'm sure that's very true, it's well known the only thing that comes out of meetings is empty cups, empty plates and people.
I've always worked 'on the tools', even when in a supervisory role I work with the men, I'd never ask anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself.
It doesn't matter if you're an engineer, plant operator, tradesman or labourer on any of the jobs or sites I've worked on or in later years run (on the ground) there's no skiving, one thing working men hate is carrying dead weight, everyone pulls their weight or it's bye bye.
Luckily I've only ever had to sack one person, a Manc on a job in Liverpool, he showed a very poor attitude to his work and whinging and complaining but the final straw was he came into the canteen, kicked someone's bag across the floor and was shouting '**** this ****ing shit' etc, because it rained and he got wet, I had 20 odd men working away from home and as their foreman was responsible for their well-being to a certain extent, I didn't need anyone displaying this type of disruptive negativity, that was his last day.

Blimey, when was this? 1950s?

Sounds like a normal day in a food factory. It's less frequent now than 20 years ago but it still goes on. Some people are just arseholes.

 

[James Evans]

It's long been thought I sit in the shed smoking a pipe tending to whatever, with my speakers pointing out of the window so I can hear the IM pings.

I've worked from home for the past 22 years. I live over 200 miles from the nearest office, and I'm several timezones away from my nearest team member. Being in the UK has advantages for meetings. I really feel for the teams out in India/Nepal who are required on weekly (several per week) US PST time meetings. They jar with me eating into evenings, but for them it's early hours of the morning, week after week. On the rare occasions I've been in the office I tend to end up finding a meeting room to sit in just so I can get away from the office chatter and focus and get stuff done.

 

[Brown Bottle]

As some of you are aware I'm involved with office cleaning in Central London, people are coming back to the office but it's never going to be 5 days per week anymore. Some of my clients are telling me there is so much resistance to coming back to the office that they taking a very softly, softly approach to it, as they fear losing their best staff. If you want a day out in London, come on a Friday, public transport is much quieter.

My daughter and future SIL are both Civil Servants, based out of different offices in Westminster, they are being encouraged to return to the office but there isn't enough space for all the staff, they think they will only need to attend twice per week.

Personally I can't stand working from home, I much prefer going to the office, even having an office at home it doesn't feel right. I'm trying to work from home twice per week as I'm living further away from London and getting up at 03.45, 3 times per week, is enough at my age.

Cheers BB

 

[Mike Hughes]

For me, it is the interaction that is important. I think that management teams understand this. Anyone who has been through agile training will have learned that the most effective communication method is face-to-face conversations. I don't see how new people can be trained and integrated effectively if everyone works remotely.

Then you should try it.

There are undoubtedly issues and they become more apparent as time goes on but there’s nothing so compelling it would ever need to be 5 days a week. Training is fine remotely. Introducing and embedding a culture or ideology much harder. Social interaction is lovely and needed but we also live in a world where there are less people to do more work and we’ve been able to watch as job satisfaction goes up but actual productivity decreases when people are in the office. Having opted from day one of lockdown to implement a hybrid approach my employer initially focused on remembering the job wasn’t about location but getting tasks done. Much backtracking letter and the sell is the creativity of the open plan office. This is a decade or more behind what we now know about open plan offices i.e. that they reduce opennness; can produce passive aggressive bullying and are generally demoralising. Ask them for examples of creative, co-operative working and they don’t have any.

 

[Cav]

For all the stuff about effective working and face-to-face communication I think a lot of it comes down to an assumption that people working from home are slacking.

A colleague told me that over lockdown she'd work in the morning then spent the afternoon gardening. I'm in two minds about that. It's obviously not what her line manager would want to hear but on the other hand if she really has completed all her work for the day by lunchtime there doesn't seem much point her sitting at a screen twiddling her thumbs.

If she were working in the office and went home at lunch time because she had "completed her all her work for the day" how do you think that would play out?

 

[paulfromcamden]

If she were working in the office and went home at lunch time because she had "completed her all her work for the day" how do you think that would play out?

Very badly. But pottering about, taking a few tea breaks and popping into have a chat with someone in their office can easily take up a whole afternoon without any more work getting done.

At the end of the day it depends on whether you're paying someone to get the work done or paying them for eight hours of their life.

 

[Brown Bottle]

I know someone who worked for TFL who logged on in the morning and rigged up a devise to move his mouse so he stayed logged on, he then went out and played golf. He'd been moved sideways and was left to see out his time before retiring with practically nothing to do, no wonder TFL are in a mess.

Cheers BB

 

[gintonic]

devise to move his mouse so he stayed logged on

mouse jiggler https://www.amazon.co.uk/mouse-jiggler/s?k=mouse+jiggler&tag=pinkfishmedia-21

quite alot of research on mouse dynamics and key stroke tracking to determine genuine use.

 

[gez]

Never in my experience from working for a variety of employers in my work environment (construction) in 35+ years, that attitude and you'd be out on your arse quicker than you could say P45.

I'm talking specifically about office work obviously.

 

[paulfromcamden]

mouse jiggler https://www.amazon.co.uk/mouse-jiggler/s?k=mouse+jiggler&tag=pinkfishmedia-21&tag=pinkfishmedia-21

quite alot of research on mouse dynamics and key stroke tracking to determine genuine use.

Or employers could just appraise people on the quality of their work, not on how much time they've spent in front of their screen.

Though I guess it's a lot less effort to just get a report telling you Bob spent 36 hours last week moving his mouse but Steve only 29 hours. No slacking Steve!

 

[gez]

probably right it is broadly the most effective form of interaction in terms of getting things done

Except that the pandemic and lockdown across several countries has proven categorically once and for all that that is just a myth. One that is almost entirely perpetuated by people who either a) just prefer it personally and so in typical human fashion believe their preferences are truth and that everyone should do as they do or b) have ulterior motives for saying so - e.g. companies/manager that want to force people back in to the office.

 

[gez]

I've done that too - with a team spread between London, NY and Tokyo. With IM and video it worked really well. My colleagues in Tokyo would handover to me first thing and we'd chat from about 8:30am to 10am then in the afternoon I'd catch up with my colleague in NY and handover any ongoing issues. It's a pretty common way of working in fintech where you have a single team providing round the clock support for systems in different regions.

Communication was actually a lot better than it is in my current role where everyone is in the office but there's a tendency for people to become siloed. Good communication really isn't about the geography or having people in the same room.

This is BAU for a lot of teams in global companies. Particularly support teams etc.