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Extremely Loud CD

stackowax

stackowax

pfm Member
I purchased a CD by Prince a few days ago (The Vault...Old friends 4 Sale). Popped it into the CD, pressed play, and BAM! I would have destroyed my speakers had I not had the remote in my hand (pressed mute immediately). This thing is louder at a 8 o'clock on the volume knob than other CDs would be at full volume (and its probably louder than that). Other CDs are just fine.

When I ripped the CD and streamed it, it was fine. When I play it in the car stereo it's somewhat louder than most, but not deafening. It actually sounds pretty good in the car.

Any idea what is going on?
 
On any decent system the difference between a good CD and brickwalled crap is just huge, and certainly needs care with the volume knob. I don’t know the Prince CD in question, though the original ‘80s issues are fine IMO.
 
Thanks Tony. I suppose maybe the differences come down to my main system and the car stereo but this is seriously extreme. I can't explain the extreme differences in playback from one system to the next, but it did make me wonder whether the CD itself is some kind of bootleg. When you play it back in a system that doesn't have access to the internets (the car stereo for example), there are no song names attached to the tracks. Nor does the player recognize the artist or title of the CD.

FWIW, I think the CD itself has some real gems--both sonically and musically. Try "When the Lights Go Down". It's available on both Spotify and Tidal.
 
stackowax said:
I suppose maybe the differences come down to my main system and the car stereo but this is seriously extreme. I can't explain the extreme differences in playback from one system to the next, but it did make me wonder whether the CD itself is some kind of bootleg. When you play it back in a system that doesn't have access to the internets (the car stereo for example), there are no song names attached to the tracks. Nor does the player recognize the artist or title of the CD.
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It will be the main system can process the volume difference, the car system can’t. There is a huge difference in median level between a properly recorded and mastered jazz or classical CD and modern brick-walled pop/rock which only dips a couple of db from the 0db max level. It can be 30, 40 or more db difference, and if you have proper big full-range speakers and appropriate amplification that can handle that gap it is scary. I have to be very careful swapping from something like a 1980s early CD string quartet and say The Flaming Lips or Radiohead as what was a nice natural sensible level becomes almost a full rock gig level (I really don’t like high volume!). It is crazy. I really hate brickwalled CDs and frequently find myself dumping music as life is too short to waste on such horrible sound. As an example I rather like Amy Winehouse, but I’d never want to play those horrible sounding CDs so own none of her work.

FWIW I was round at Richard (Lordsummit)’s a few days ago and asked him to compare the original of Prince’s Purple Rain with the new deluxe edition. The original just killed it IMO. The new version is hyped and compressed as is the modern way.
 
I don't have issues playing compressed stuff. I mean it's obvious when something's compressed but it's not unlistenable.

I think digital volume control helps here, in a couple of ways. Note the kit muggles use to listen to modern music (smart phones, tablets, laptops, smart speakers, car stereos, etc) all use digital volume control, which I think can help a bit.
 
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Why would that be? I don’t have any ‘problem’ with it, I just need to remember where the volume knob is as the Tannoys can easily process the volume difference which would make me jump out of my skin! I have to be far more careful with the Leak/JR149 system as switching from a nicely mastered CD to some brickwalled crap with a many db higher median level may drive it into clipping.

Thankfully I’m becoming increasingly disinterested in the sort of music this awful mastering applies to and I’m certainly at the stage I play far more classical and jazz to rock or pop.
 
Some DACs are fully happy nearer to 0dB, some aren't. The one's that aren't can benefit from digital attenuation. Compressed recordings spend more of their time nearer to 0dB which is the sometimes-problem area.

Also some oversampling DACs can exhibit digital clipping. This is an issue, in the scheme of things, only for some of the most compressed recordings. To an audiophile who avoids "modern crap because it sounds so bad", such recordings are very rare. To someone who listens to a lot of modern music as I do though, such recordings are not rare at all, they're quite common. Digital attenuation solves it.
 
The 3.4V output of my CDP rather limits the CDs I can 'comfortably' play. Oddly, we used to play Dido CDs on my Meridian G08 CDP, itself having a 2.5 ish output, and enjoyed them. Change to valved CDP (Lector) and the compression suddenly became obvious. I'm have an input sensitivity reduced on my pre. in the New Year to accommodate the Lector.

Not sure yet by how much I should have it reduced, though; someone once suggested a factor of about 1.5 dB, but that doesn't mean a lot to me as I think in (milli) volts.
 
Mike Reed said:
The 3.4V output of my CDP rather limits the CDs I can 'comfortably' play. Oddly, we used to play Dido CDs on my Meridian G08 CDP, itself having a 2.5 ish output, and enjoyed them. Change to valved CDP (Lector) and the compression suddenly became obvious. I'm have an input sensitivity reduced on my pre. in the New Year to accommodate the Lector.

Not sure yet by how much I should have it reduced, though; someone once suggested a factor of about 1.5 dB, but that doesn't mean a lot to me as I think in (milli) volts.
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Who suggested 1.5 dB? That is pretty minimal - only a factor or 19%. I would go for 6 dB or so - halving the 3.4 V to 1.7 V.
 
Julf said:
Who suggested 1.5 dB? That is pretty minimal - only a factor or 19%. I would go for 6 dB or so - halving the 3.4 V to 1.7 V.
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Doesn't this also depend on the power amp gain? In my case I have attenuated the output of my Weiss DAC down to 0.53V from 4.06V (-18dB) as the power amp will produce 1600W into 4 Ohms with an input of 1.65V. I can then play at realistic teeth rattling volume between -22 to 0dB.

Cheers,

DV
 
Julf said:
Who suggested 1.5 dB? That is pretty minimal - only a factor or 19%. I would go for 6 dB or so - halving the 3.4 V to 1.7 V.
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Ta. So -5dB would probably equate to just below 2mV (theoretical line level?). My E.A.R. 912 pre. doesn't give sensitivity figures (although if I phone, I s'pose they'll give them to me). My Naim 552 was definitely more sensitive, judging by the effect of my 01 tuner on the 9112's VU meters; can't do much about that, though. Can't see my 100 watt powers having much of an influence on matching the CDP to the pre., though.
 
Mike Reed said:
Ta. So -5dB would probably equate to just below 2mV (theoretical line level?). My E.A.R. 912 pre. doesn't give sensitivity figures (although if I phone, I s'pose they'll give them to me). My Naim 552 was definitely more sensitive, judging by the effect of my 01 tuner on the 9112's VU meters; can't do much about that, though. Can't see my 100 watt powers having much of an influence on matching the CDP to the pre., though.
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Yes it will and should be taken into account. The line input of the 912 has a gain of x5 so put 1V RMS in and get 5V RMS out if the pre doesn't clip and it shouldn't if its well designed.
 
Lewis,

I really can't see that, although I acknowledge your vastly superior knowledge here. I can adjust what enters the power amp's by either the pre.'s vol. control or the pot's on the 509s (although this latter degrades the dynamics). I simply want the VU meters to show that the incoming signal is within their range, and it certainly ain't at the mo'. Every other source is, however (vinyl via on-board adjustable stages), tuner and TV.

By your calc's my CDP's 3.4V is being amplified to 17V before attenuation; seems rather a lot.
 
stackowax said:
I purchased a CD by Prince a few days ago (The Vault...Old friends 4 Sale). Popped it into the CD, pressed play, and BAM! I would have destroyed my speakers had I not had the remote in my hand (pressed mute immediately). This thing is louder at a 8 o'clock on the volume knob than other CDs would be at full volume (and its probably louder than that). Other CDs are just fine.

When I ripped the CD and streamed it, it was fine. When I play it in the car stereo it's somewhat louder than most, but not deafening. It actually sounds pretty good in the car.

Any idea what is going on?
Click to expand...
I also own this (great album BTW Tony may enjoy this one...) it is incredibly loud, it's not just the output but the dynamics are extraordinary, trumpets in particular will take your head off playing through Naim gear.

Anything from the mid 90's from Prince is built the same, very loud but with exemplary production, very live sounding recordings.
 
I don't have the record, but it's possible that every multitrack channel is heavily compressed individually, rather than the overall stereo mix which is the vandalism we are used to hearing.
 
Prince was one of the first artists to take advantage of the dynamic range CDs had to offer, but around 94 or 95 he just started ramping up the levels to ear-bleeding volumes.
 
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