Do loudspeakers ‘break in’?
- Thread starter Purité Audio
- Start date
Paul Burke
pfm Member
Yes, measurably so. Q & fs changing mainly. Amounts and time/power required, generally in woofers varies between drivers.
Put very low frequencies through them at decent volume & excursion and most changes are done in 10-15 minutes. During that brief time the fr can change, but needing 100hrs use is generally bs and possibly used by some to give customers hope a speaker might improve, when really they’re just adjusting to a new sound, possibly growing on them, possibly not
Put very low frequencies through them at decent volume & excursion and most changes are done in 10-15 minutes. During that brief time the fr can change, but needing 100hrs use is generally bs and possibly used by some to give customers hope a speaker might improve, when really they’re just adjusting to a new sound, possibly growing on them, possibly not
Cereal Killer
432
Yes, thanks. I take it you didn't understand my point so i'll expand; Why does he constantly need ASR (mainly another form of marketing BS) reviews try and prove a 100% subjective 100% personal experience? .... who's ears do you listen with?
Tony L
Administrator
There are lots of proven scientific reasons as to why a speaker takes time to break in, and often a lot of time. The spider and surround loosen up a little over time, electrolytic capacitors in the crossover take time to form (they are usually vastly over specified so the voltage passing through is a fraction of their rating) etc etc. If this ‘typically Keith’ shill/troll thread teaches us anything it is that the crude measurements of sweeps etc he so regularly spams here just don’t detect anything like the same nuance the ear does.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
Personally I think Amir's measurements can help to explain why something sounds the way it does, at least sometimes. But they are no substitute for listening.
John Phillips
pfm Member
That seems about right to me. Some time ago I looked for data on the magnitude of measured changes in drive unit parameters between new and broken-in. The data I found, if reliable and IIRC, suggested the changes were comparable to or smaller than the manufacturing tolerances for the parameters, which I looked up at the same time.
So if loudspeaker manufacturer does a drive unit high-level "rub and buzz" test and then checks the units are within design tolerance I would expect any residual break-in to be minimally audible, if at all.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
I am not really clear what I am ‘shilling’ or how I am ‘trolling’, I just thought it might be interesting to see some measurements.
Measurements and specifications just help you to make informed decisions.
Keith
Cereal Killer
432
@Purité Audio It would be way more interesting to listen to some kit, don't you think?
Do you really think some measurements clearly addressing a 'personal quest' to be of aid to someone?
Do you really think some measurements clearly addressing a 'personal quest' to be of aid to someone?
Tony L
Administrator
Only if both the person creating them and the people reading and regurgitating them know what they are doing, which in most cases based on recent evidence, they clearly don’t!
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
ATC responding to the question of ‘speaker burn in’ complete article over at ASR.
Quote,
ATC
“We do not consider 'burn in' an issue. When our loudspeakers leave the factory they are in perfect working order and their performance will not change over time unless they are not cared for or get very old.
I think 'burn in' was probably invented by hi-fi dealers so that when they sell a cable for 500 euros and the customer complains he can't hear any difference the dealer can tell them it needs 'burning in'. After the customer has waited for two weeks for the cable to 'burn in' he has forgotten how his system sounded in the first place and can't be bothered to complain again.”
Keith
Quote,
ATC
“We do not consider 'burn in' an issue. When our loudspeakers leave the factory they are in perfect working order and their performance will not change over time unless they are not cared for or get very old.
I think 'burn in' was probably invented by hi-fi dealers so that when they sell a cable for 500 euros and the customer complains he can't hear any difference the dealer can tell them it needs 'burning in'. After the customer has waited for two weeks for the cable to 'burn in' he has forgotten how his system sounded in the first place and can't be bothered to complain again.”
Keith
Cereal Killer
432
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
You will see some change in parameters after burn-in, the Fs will reduce, the Qm (mechanical Q) will also drop, and Cms will increase, these are all effects of the suspension softening from it’s ‘fresh’ state,
The spider is a resin impregnated fabric, and it’s the resin that micro-fractures and the spider softens.
Every manufacturer should ‘benchmark’ those changes it allow for those changes in the finished product.
https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/
Keith
The spider is a resin impregnated fabric, and it’s the resin that micro-fractures and the spider softens.
Every manufacturer should ‘benchmark’ those changes it allow for those changes in the finished product.
https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/
Keith
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
I asked a friend who works for Tymphany on ‘break in’ and driver variation.
Quote,
‘Yes the finished speaker measured response will change a bit after break-in,
Usually the manufacturer will benchmark the difference in a fresh driver and the same driver that’s been broken in,
The product will be designed with a broken in driver set, and then re-confirmed with one of the first prototypes being measured as a finished speaker fresh and after burn-in,
From this you can basically ‘calibrate’ the break-in difference.
The change will be audible.
In terms of unit to unit variation, that is a hot topic in the industry,
Most drive unit manufacturers don’t like to publish tolerance on SPL, those who do often use +/-3dB which is pretty huge!
Tymphany use +/- 1 dB on everything which is unmatched in the industry as far as I know.
With a larger variation e.g. if a manufacturer gives +/- 3dB you’d hope that drivers from the same batch would be close than that, but worst case would be up to a 6dB difference between 2 drivers!
Various ways of calibrating have been used over the years, the BBC specified an autotransformer with tappings to allow calibration on the LS3/5a,
Many manufacturers measure drivers and pair-match, which is a pain to do, and not without it’s issues, this only calibrates L-R differences,
For Active systems it’s possible to have calibration adjustment on each individual speaker. Either analogue or DSP.’
Keith
Quote,
‘Yes the finished speaker measured response will change a bit after break-in,
Usually the manufacturer will benchmark the difference in a fresh driver and the same driver that’s been broken in,
The product will be designed with a broken in driver set, and then re-confirmed with one of the first prototypes being measured as a finished speaker fresh and after burn-in,
From this you can basically ‘calibrate’ the break-in difference.
The change will be audible.
In terms of unit to unit variation, that is a hot topic in the industry,
Most drive unit manufacturers don’t like to publish tolerance on SPL, those who do often use +/-3dB which is pretty huge!
Tymphany use +/- 1 dB on everything which is unmatched in the industry as far as I know.
With a larger variation e.g. if a manufacturer gives +/- 3dB you’d hope that drivers from the same batch would be close than that, but worst case would be up to a 6dB difference between 2 drivers!
Various ways of calibrating have been used over the years, the BBC specified an autotransformer with tappings to allow calibration on the LS3/5a,
Many manufacturers measure drivers and pair-match, which is a pain to do, and not without it’s issues, this only calibrates L-R differences,
For Active systems it’s possible to have calibration adjustment on each individual speaker. Either analogue or DSP.’
Keith
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Moving parts, designed to fall into tolerance after a while (like a car engine's cylinders bedding in after a few thousand miles) make a very noticeable change when they are in tolerance IME.
Some loudspeaker makers put a few hours through their speakers before boxing them, and some speakers are not designed with mechanical parts that need to 'settle down', but just personally, I have never owned speakers that didn't change sound, particularly in the lower mid and bass regions, after several hours/days of play.
Some loudspeaker makers put a few hours through their speakers before boxing them, and some speakers are not designed with mechanical parts that need to 'settle down', but just personally, I have never owned speakers that didn't change sound, particularly in the lower mid and bass regions, after several hours/days of play.
There are 2 german bi-monthly magazine devoted to diy speaker building and they frequently test new drivers. All the drivers are "run in" for 24h with high excursion levels before testing.
If you look at the spec sheets for Wavecor drivers they quote driver parameters before and after burn-in.
So I feel sure that the vast majority of loudspeakers will "break in". Perhaps more expensive speakers are broken in at the factory (more time available?) when they are tested for specification.
If you look at the spec sheets for Wavecor drivers they quote driver parameters before and after burn-in.
So I feel sure that the vast majority of loudspeakers will "break in". Perhaps more expensive speakers are broken in at the factory (more time available?) when they are tested for specification.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
If I bought a pair of brand new loudspeakers that had +/-1dB difference in SPL across the full frequency range (i.e. one channel was 2dB louder than the other), my ears would soon notice and they'd be going back for a refund! I'd be a bit more forgiving of variations at particular frequencies as long as the Q was fairly narrow as these would of course be less noticeable to the ear. Fortunately modern production techniques are such that it is common to find loudspeakers matched to within +/-0.5dB across their entire operating range, even +/-0.25dB is feasible. If budget offerings like the Q Acoustics 3010 can achieve this then there really shouldn't be any excuses from the more expensive brands not to, assuming they're using SOTA manufacturing processes. (I relax my QC tolerances a little for manufacturers who handicap themselves by using legacy / heritage / cottage / olde world technology!
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