Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

[Sibbers]

The whole system is a chain and neglecting any part of it will cause issues. There probably is no most important part. I keep seeing "the room is most important" or "the speakers are most important" - they are probably, in truth, all equal unless they specifically are the deficient part.

I don't think the term PRAT means it's adding something that wasn't there by definition, it just means that there is enough focus on providing the capacitance or whatever it is that controls speakers sufficiently to time. Maybe some do add something. I think my valves add a bit of distortion which is both an addition (a small fraction of a single percent) and pleasing to hear, but I don't think it has an affect on pace rhythm or timing.

 

[finkaudio]

that's my view also. Damping factor in your speakers + room resonances will likely far exceed any issues in a decent solid state amp with sufficient output current to drive the expected speakers.

Sure, a bad amp and speaker combo may not work well but well, that's always been the case hasn't it.

...tell me, do you have any know how about electronic or acoustics beside what you might have found on Internet forums? You have an opinion about almost everything, but I'm not sure what you knowledge base it.
In the last 30 years I worked on Audio devices day by day but if I read all you comments or opinions, I must have been a complete fool most of the time.

Can you imagine that there is something going on that you might not know???

I now remember, why I wasn't active in forums for years.....time to go, I'm afraid.

 

[FireMoon]

If FinkAudio is who I fink they are ..arf arf..... then this might strike a chord. If you predominantly listen to music made post 65 that falls into the "modern" bag then you are often listening to the sound of those 4 units sonic signature. The Urei 1176, the LA2A, the LA3A and the VU meter version of the DBX 160. Those four units tone are writ large across modern music.

Take 5 of your favourite recordings then go check out where they were recorded and through what desk. Here's a starter for you; 6 albums which for me. define the British song writer are, Nick Drake's three albums and John Martyn's Bless the Weather/Solid Air/Inside Out. The name of "Sound Techniques" studio features prominently in the recording process , Inside out was recorded as Island Studios.

See, we all have an inbuilt bias towards a "sound" that pleases us and we will, search out music which reflects that bias, recordings which do the same and likewise a system that gives us a clear picture of that preferred tone.

 

[Markus S]

I must have been a complete fool most of the time.

All of life is just an illusion ...

I now remember, why I wasn't active in forums for years.....time to go, I'm afraid.

Please stay, Karl-Heinz. Just accept that some people don't share your views. Let them live in their world and please continue to educate us about what you have learned in yours.

 

[Markus S]

If FinkAudio is who I fink they are

There's a homepage link in the profile, so he's not exactly hiding his identity.

 

[FireMoon]

There's a homepage link in the profile, so he's not exactly hiding his identity.

Ah, I though he might be this guy.... http://www.barryrudolph.com/mix/finkaudiocs2-fa.html

 

[Sibbers]

I for one, would really like to benefit from the experience of others. I have learnt that practical experience usually outweighs the benefit of theoretical knowledge, and the enthusiastic resistance to 'foo', while in some parts healthy, can also stop some enlightened people with experience from posting anything at all.

It's those who have arrived at audio nirvana that I want to be able to hear from the most - if however they are constantly having their credibility challenged then what motivation do they have? And that would defeat the whole purpose of this forums existence.

 

[Hook]

In a review of the Naim NDX, Malcolm Steward said that while it is:

"...a noteworthy performer in hi-fi terms it is even more outstanding in the way in which it conveys music and the emotion within it. Much of this is a result of the Naim's legendary dexterity with timing information and the accuracy with which it conveys ADSR envelopes. This ensures that you hear a performer's phrasing exactly the way they intended you to hear it. This, I feel, is what separates it from other exceptional – and often much more expensive − streamers that can match its hi-fi performance but cannot equal its ability to communicate in musical terms."

PRAT here is not used to describe a "band playing together" or the "bass keeping up" or the like. Instead, it is used to describe an audio system's ability to precisely reproduce musical notes over time (attack, decay, sustain, release). Done well, and the reviewer claims an audio system can create a richer sense of tone and timbre, as well as a heightened sense of realism.

Also, this is also the closest I've seen to an explanation of the word "musical" when used to describe an audio system.

 

[LouisB]

...tell me, do you have any know how about electronic or acoustics beside what you might have found on Internet forums? You have an opinion about almost everything, but I'm not sure what you knowledge base it.
In the last 30 years I worked on Audio devices day by day but if I read all you comments or opinions, I must have been a complete fool most of the time.

Can you imagine that there is something going on that you might not know???

I now remember, why I wasn't active in forums for years.....time to go, I'm afraid.

A little bit rude and presumptuous. However, no need to get so defensive. I do happen to have some knowledge yes, sorry it's not just something reserved for you. But why should it matter to you so much anyway?

I'm terribly sorry for having an opinion and also some knowledge to back it up.

Or, how about get over it already and let people have their say, even if it doesn't confirm to your 'expert' opinion

You have your say, I have mine. We say what we believe and whatever be the case, it won't really change anything. So no tears please A lot of this is highly subjective anyway, so I for one won't lose any sleep over it.

So perhaps see it as a bit of fun, an exchange of opinions and ideas. It's a forum, it's what it's about after all. If we all held the same views then, time to close the forum...

 

[fay spook]

If we accept that we can all blame Martin Colloms for coining this term

no you can't. I mentioned this earlier.

PR&D

 

[fay spook]

I do happen to have some knowledge yes, sorry it's not just something reserved for you. But why should it matter to you so much anyway?

I'm terribly sorry for having an opinion and also some knowledge to back it up.

Or, how about get over it already and let people have their say, even if it doesn't confirm to your 'expert' opinion

You have your say, I have mine. We say what we believe and whatever be the case, it won't really change anything. So no tears please A lot of this is highly subjective anyway, so I for one won't lose any sleep over it.

So perhaps see it as a bit of fun, an exchange of opinions and ideas. It's a forum, it's what it's about after all. If we all held the same views then, time to close the forum...

Don't forget KHF runs a successful business developing hifi products. I would call him an expert. He did ask about your knowledge. You haven't shared the source of it yet. So your level of expertise is decided by your comments, like most here, but if KHF can disagree and back it up with research doesn't that add some weight to his arguments?

Me? I work in audio. Critical listening and audio processing. No PHD yet but an MSc. Mentioned in the AES journal in a minor way. Commission and participate research from universities in audio subjects. Musician (crap one). Involved with amateur recording but I also get into proper studios for work. Make speakers and synths. Flogged hifi for over 10 years too.

Don't worry this isn't a "I've shown you mine, show me yours" thing, I was just giving an indication that you won't be alone in have "the knowledge"!!

(some monitoring I had to use was QUAD/Tannoy DC, I have hundreds of hours listening to this so I know what a soggy amp sounds like)

 

[LouisB]

Don't forget KHF runs a successful business developing hifi products. I would call him an expert. He did ask about your knowledge. You haven't shared the source of it yet. So your level of expertise is decided by your comments, like most here, but if KHF can disagree and back it up with research doesn't that add some weight to his arguments?

Me? I work in audio. Critical listening and audio processing. No PHD yet but an MSc. Mentioned in the AES journal in a minor way. Commission and participate research from universities in audio subjects. Musician (crap one). Involved with amateur recording but I also get into proper studios for work. Make speakers and synths. Flogged hifi for over 10 years too.

Don't worry this isn't a "I've shown you mine, show me yours" thing, I was just giving an indication that you won't be alone in have "the knowledge"!!

(some monitoring I had to use was QUAD/Tannoy DC, I have hundreds of hours listening to this so I know what a soggy amp sounds like)

Thanks. I sympathise with your point, generally.

However, to me, it doesn't matter if KHF runs a biggest hi-shop in the galaxy.

In fact, to me that just says; vested interest...

I do not need to prove my knowledge to you guys and gals. I'll just have my say, just like you do.

I don't ask you to prove who you are in order you can express an opinion.

Although, fwiw I do have valid credentials, but frankly none of your business. I don't have any vested interests at all.

I'm not trying to sell you anything.

Amazing how touchy people get about domestic music reproduction gear. There are reasons why people touchy.

It's OK to have a different opinion, especially when you get to the esoteric all ill-defined subject of things like PRaT. I've expressed what I think about it. Rather than criticise me for it, how about spend the time to make a well argued case for the contrary point. Or accept that different views can exist.

(yes, I've also been listening, critically, to music, all of my life. It is not a competition!)

 

[Tony L]

This is all pointing at high PRAT amplifiers adding something, rather than accuracy.
Many people like this spice, but is not suitable for all music or ears.

I have to admit that's the point I've ended up at. I now view the flat-earth thing as a rather distinct voicing/presentational style/artifice and one that IMHO tends to make simple rock and pop music sound rather more exciting than it actually is, but tends to fall horribly apart with more demanding material. I now aim for a system that never sounds like it is rushing or has that 'edge of seat' manic foot-tapping thing, but makes tempo really, really easy to follow be it fast, medium, slow or ever-changing. Don't get me wrong, I think some systems do sound slow and arhythmic, i.e. it is certainly possible to go too far the other way (bad ported speakers, inappropriate amp/speaker matching, poor quality or badly setup record decks etc etc). The middle ground is where to be - a system should be able to play any genre, tempo or time-signature with ease. I have no time for "rock" systems etc, my system needs to be just as happy with a Bach violin sonata, Bartok string quartet etc as it is with The Meat Puppets, Squarepusher, Can or whatever.

 

[LouisB]

I have to admit that's the point I've ended up at. I now view the flat-earth thing as a rather distinct voicing/presentational style/artifice and one that IMHO tends to make simple rock and pop music sound rather more exciting than it actually is, but tends to fall horribly apart with more demanding material. I now aim for a system that never sounds like it is rushing or has that 'edge of seat' manic foot-tapping thing, but makes tempo really, really easy to follow be it fast, medium, slow or ever-changing. Don't get me wrong, I think some systems do sound slow and arhythmic, i.e. it is certainly possible to go too far the other way (bad ported speakers, inappropriate amp/speaker matching, poor quality or badly setup record decks etc etc). The middle ground is where to be - a system should be able to play any genre, tempo or time-signature with ease. I have no time for "rock" systems etc, my system needs to be just as happy with a Bach violin sonata, Bartok string quartet etc as it is with The Meat Puppets, Squarepusher, Can or whatever.

+1000, couldn't agree more. Neutrality and transparency. Accurately reflect what was recorded, is the best you can hope for.

If you can truly do that, your system should be pretty agnostic to what you play through it. Even if that means some stuff doesn't sound as exciting as it does on another less neutral system.

There are definitely some systems, aimed to impress, that don't work equally well across a broad range of musical styles. This says to me, it's not as neutral or transparent as it could be.

 

[finkaudio]

Me? I work in audio. Critical listening and audio processing. No PHD yet but an MSc. Mentioned in the AES journal in a minor way. Commission and participate research from universities in audio subjects. Musician (crap one). Involved with amateur recording but I also get into proper studios for work. Make speakers and synths. Flogged hifi for over 10 years too.

Thanks for your words!
My fiddling with the NAIM amps is pure hobby - so I'm not here to tell others what is going on. But I have a lot of respect for people who are working in this industry and trying hard to find a way to make things better. I just expect that others, who obviously don't have the same experience, don't treat them here like idiots. As I said already in another post, the most difficult people are the ones who don't know what they don't know.

So it's better to go away and keep away from stress No bad feeling

 

[LouisB]

"... that others, who obviously don't have the same experience, don't treat them here like idiots"

The irony here is classic. So wait a sec, who exactly is treating who like idiots then, given what you just said?

 

[Sibbers]

To be fair Louis, you've dropped a couple of clangers and anyone who's experienced that which is contrary to something you've said can see that it's in the hypothetical. Meanwhile those who need the advice the most may not. The reason people are defensive of this, is because it can lead to years of missing out or huge expenditures.

It's fine to have opinions, even strong ones, but you should remain open minded to the fact that sometimes 1 + 1 don't equal 2. When you have someone who really does have years of experience listening to very high end gear and able to make direct comparisons, their opinion (which can is informed practically) is worth a great deal for anyone trawling for advice.

I'm really not trying to be that guy (sorry - I do feel bad) but I have suffered bad advice and wasted years. It's important that forums like these are full of helpful guidance, as there aren't many places safe from the misinformation of the vocal internet remaining. I know it's well intended because you come across like a good dude. I wish you could hear my system with the same amp you own, the Rega and the LSA because it would really challenge your thinking and be an eye opener for you. If you're ever in west London hit me up.

 

[LouisB]

To be fair Louis, you've dropped a couple of clangers and anyone who's experienced that which is contrary to something you've said can see that it's in the hypothetical. Meanwhile those who need the advice the most may not. The reason people are defensive of this, is because it can lead to years of missing out or huge expenditures.

It's fine to have opinions, even strong ones, but you should remain open minded to the fact that sometimes 1 + 1 don't equal 2. When you have someone who really does have years of experience listening to very high end gear and able to make direct comparisons, their opinion (which can is informed practically) is worth a great deal for anyone trawling for advice.

I'm really not trying to be that guy (sorry - I do feel bad) but I have suffered bad advice and wasted years. It's important that forums like these are full of helpful guidance, as there aren't many places safe from the misinformation of the vocal internet remaining. I know it's well intended because you come across like a good dude. I wish you could hear my system with the same amp you own, the Rega and the LSA because it would really challenge your thinking and be an eye opener for you. If you're ever in west London hit me up.

Hey, I'm all for interesting banter and advice.

What are the clangers you speak of, lets go over them so we can be sure of the problems I think some things I mentioned have also been aired by others. As I reiterate I think there can be more than one point of view on some of these matters, especially when we get to fringe subjectives. PRaT is a terrible name, it certainly doesn't help in these matters either.

BTW it's entirely likely I'll buy an amp like the Rega, if not the exact Rega. Never questioned it was a bad choice, not for a second. Or asked you to justify it or prove your opinion has value because of your personal background.

 

[Lee T]

I have to admit that's the point I've ended up at. I now view the flat-earth thing as a rather distinct voicing/presentational style/artifice and one that IMHO tends to make simple rock and pop music sound rather more exciting than it actually is, but tends to fall horribly apart with more demanding material. I now aim for a system that never sounds like it is rushing or has that 'edge of seat' manic foot-tapping thing, but makes tempo really, really easy to follow be it fast, medium, slow or ever-changing. Don't get me wrong, I think some systems do sound slow and arhythmic, i.e. it is certainly possible to go too far the other way (bad ported speakers, inappropriate amp/speaker matching, poor quality or badly setup record decks etc etc). The middle ground is where to be - a system should be able to play any genre, tempo or time-signature with ease. I have no time for "rock" systems etc, my system needs to be just as happy with a Bach violin sonata, Bartok string quartet etc as it is with The Meat Puppets, Squarepusher, Can or whatever.

Pace, rhythm & timing is exactly the sound you are describing, it should be relaxed & natural, not artificially enhanced, the music should do the talking, not the system as I stated way back, this is prat, you are describing it without realising it.

Checkout the russ Andrews website, he is a big believer in this stuff even though many hate the man, he describes how music should sound exactly as you do which is kind of ironic I think

Play any genre with ease sums this up.

People just do not understand what prat is until they hear it as you are describing.

Your post describes this perfectly for everyone wanting to know.

There is a cavernous difference in musical terms between laid back & relaxed, my Naim Nait 3 sounds wonderfully relaxed, it doesn't even have to try to create a rhythm, it just lets the music flow, pace & timing come from this natural, relaxed way of delivering the music.

What you describe as pace, rhythm & timing early in the post is the exact opposite of this, you are describing a forward enhanced sound, think denon & many cheaper budget models, this is not prat.

The pace, rhythm & timing should come from the music itself not the amp, source or speakers, they can only destroy it if designed badly so the op is asking the wrong question. Should be asking do Japanese amps destroy prat. No amp "does" prat.

 

[Sibbers]

Hey, I'm all for interesting banter and advice.

What are the clangers you speak of, lets go over them so we can be sure of the problems I think some things I mentioned have also been aired by others. As I reiterate I think there can be more than one point of view on some of these matters, especially when we get to fringe subjectives. PRaT is a terrible name, it certainly doesn't help in these matters either.

BTW it's entirely likely I'll buy an amp like the Rega, if not the exact Rega. Never questioned it was a bad choice, not for a second. Or asked you to justify it or prove your opinion has value because of your personal background.

Sorry dude. Your clearly a smart chap and pretty much everything you say is logical and makes sense, and in fact thinking it through it makes me sympathise with people like John West who constantly say they have a hard time acknowledging audible differences that they can't reasonably explain with all their years of experience creating and designing audio gear etc.

Imagine being an audio engineer and hearing differences in cables. What do you do? Admit your experience? Instant career suicide. I have no opinion on this, although I am doubtful I can't force my view on anyone because I have no practical way of backing it up. That said, if cables really do make a difference, then against all the resistance I'd like to hear about it.

Also, the Rega is great but my advice is deffo hear it. I've flown the flag for Rega a bit but it doesn't mean they are the best. They are great, and they were behind the amp that made the difference in my journey, but I wouldn't want you to make an ultimate choice of Rega without hearing a bunch of other stuff just in case! I've tried to be careful to not say it's what you should get, but rather say my experience was excellent and enlightening, but honestly I would suggest that the kind of people worth listening to are not the likes of me anyway. I just want to pass on what I wish people would have told me years ago, and that is that audiophiles aren't all more money than sense brigade, some of the weird foo stuff seems to exist, probably even prat. The problem with prat seems to be no one agrees what it is, or they're offended by it as a marketing term.

Anyway, I sort of regret posting the last post and this is way off topic so I'll apologise and say no more. No hard feelings mate and the offer is genuine if you ever are if the area! I'll even provide tea and biscuits (or beer and pork scratchings) The LSA amp is truly something else but I think probably the Rega is where the most bang for buck is.