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Dedicated pre-amp?

A

andy929

New Member
I currently use a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ straight into my Bryston power amplifier using the DAC’s internal pre-amp.

What, if any, would be the benefit of using a dedicated pre-amp? Should I listen to the in-house BP26 or maybe another manufacturer. I should add that the current sound is great but am wondering if a pre-amp would add something extra?

Thanks
 
currently using a marvellous black ice dac [ highly modded] as a pre . sounds very fine , lovely midrange . what would a pre bring ? well more analogue inputs as it has none , perhaps a nice remote would come with a dedicated pre . This is the first time in many years that i have got a dac used as a pre to sound so good .
 
DAC+ has nice analog preamp for integrated solution, but for example pass labs xp12 is easily noticeable upgrade
 
hifinutt said:
currently using a marvellous black ice dac [ highly modded] as a pre . sounds very fine , lovely midrange . what would a pre bring ? well more analogue inputs as it has none , perhaps a nice remote would come with a dedicated pre . This is the first time in many years that i have got a dac used as a pre to sound so good .
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I’ve not heard of the Black Ice before - I’ll check it out. Thank you
 
Mentt said:
DAC+ has nice analog preamp for integrated solution, but for example pass labs xp12 is easily noticeable upgrade
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I know Pass Labs have fantastic reputation for power amps but their pre’s are new to me. Have you compared the XP12 with valve pre amps like Arc reference 5?
 
I can’t say i miss my valve pre since going direct from the dac/digital pre.
Nice, clean and transparent.
 
Black ice used to be jolida I think. I'm gonna buy one of those. Been thinking about it for a while.
 
andy929 said:
I currently use a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ straight into my Bryston power amplifier using the DAC’s internal pre-amp.

What, if any, would be the benefit of using a dedicated pre-amp? Should I listen to the in-house BP26 or maybe another manufacturer. I should add that the current sound is great but am wondering if a pre-amp would add something extra?

Thanks
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Absolutely nothing.

Been there, done that. A preamp is a switching device (more contacts), and an attenuator (the best pot cannot sound better than no pot)
Then there may be a buffer on the input (that circuit can't ADD quality) and maybe a gain stage (ditto), and maybe an output buffer (ditto). So, if adding any preamp between your DAC and power amp makes it sound better, you really need to ask what was wrong before. Good preamps were revered in the old purely analogue days, because most were not good at all, but necessary, but in our new digital world, a preamp cannot add quality, only take a little bit away.

(Thus speaks the man with TWO preamps in series in his analogue system - it's a long and complicated story)
 
JemHayward said:
Absolutely nothing.

Been there, done that. A preamp is a switching device (more contacts), and an attenuator (the best pot cannot sound better than no pot)
Then there may be a buffer on the input (that circuit can't ADD quality) and maybe a gain stage (ditto), and maybe an output buffer (ditto)...
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...plus one very important aspect that, in many cases, explains why a system with a preamp installed sounds (much) better: impedance matching :)
 
So, let me get this right, any pre amp is better than none? Even if I have a an integrated that is £2000 then a pre amp worth 150 added is an upgrade?
 
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coltrane said:
...plus one very important aspect that, in many cases, explains why a system with a preamp installed sounds (much) better: impedance matching :)
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Err, yes but why would a DAC with a knob not impedance match in the same way? Or indeed a CD player with volume knob? My DAC has balanced outputs with a very low output impedance, but my (valve) power amp is SE with a moderately high Z - 100k, and so I cannot see a preamp in the middle making any difference. Transformer - yes, if I could be confident that the advantages could outweigh the disadvantages. My old EAR 890 sounded better through the transformer coupled balanced input than through the SE input.
 
Ruairi said:
So, let me guess this right, any pre amp is better than none? Even if I have a an integrated that is £2000 then a pre amp worth 150 added is an upgrade?
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Well, most modern integrated amps connect the high level inputs, CD, Tuner etc, directly to what we would call the power amp via the volume knob, no preamp as such.
 
JemHayward said:
Well, most modern integrated amps connect the high level inputs, CD, Tuner etc, directly to what we would call the power amp via the volume knob, no preamp as such.
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Thanks Jem. I am not sure why but I have always thought the word "integrated" in terms of amps just meant that the pre & power were in one box.
 
andy929 said:
I currently use a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ straight into my Bryston power amplifier using the DAC’s internal pre-amp.

What, if any, would be the benefit of using a dedicated pre-amp? Should I listen to the in-house BP26 or maybe another manufacturer. I should add that the current sound is great but am wondering if a pre-amp would add something extra?

Thanks
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Interestingly I was looking at the possibility of buying a Mytek Brooklyn bridge, as it would allow me to run both digital and anologue front end, without requiring a pre amp. That would free me up to sell on my Primare pre32 to offset a chunk of the cost of the Mytek unit. Out of interest, do you recommend the Brooklyn dac?
 
andy929 said:
I currently use a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ straight into my Bryston power amplifier using the DAC’s internal pre-amp.

What, if any, would be the benefit of using a dedicated pre-amp? Should I listen to the in-house BP26 or maybe another manufacturer. I should add that the current sound is great but am wondering if a pre-amp would add something extra?

Thanks
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I think my experience might help.

The DAC in my system is a Mytek Manhattan II. I have a Brooklyn in another system and both Mytek devices have a similar sound signature (the Manhattan is all round a little better, but it should be). I have analogue sources in my main system that go through the Manhattan's analogue pre-amp. I currently have a Bryston BP26 on loan, as I was considering taking the Manhattan out of the main system and using an RME ADI-2 in its place in combination with another pre-amp. I prefer the RME DAC to the Myteks.

Both the RME and the Manhattan sounded significantly better when driving my power amps directly, than via the BP26, which added a degree of top end harshness and sibilance, just a bit but immediately noticeable. Also, the Bryston's balanced input is way too sensitive to use with the unattenuated output from the RME (I didn't try this with the Mytek as both DACs have similar unattenuated output levels).

I would add that the analogue pre-amp in the Manhattan appears better than the BP26 (which is quite an old design). I don't know what the analogue pre-amp in the Brooklyn+ is like but it is supposed to be better than that in the original Brooklyn, which does not get close to the Manhattan.

If I were you and only had digital sources, I wouldn't bother with a pre-amp, it can only degrade the signal from your DAC whilst lightening your wallet.
 
Timcat said:
I think my experience might help.

The DAC in my system is a Mytek Manhattan II. I have a Brooklyn in another system and both Mytek devices have a similar sound signature (the Manhattan is all round a little better, but it should be). I have analogue sources in my main system that go through the Manhattan's analogue pre-amp. I currently have a Bryston BP26 on loan, as I was considering taking the Manhattan out of the main system and using an RME ADI-2 in its place in combination with another pre-amp. I prefer the RME DAC to the Myteks.

Both the RME and the Manhattan sounded significantly better when driving my power amps directly, than via the BP26, which added a degree of top end harshness and sibilance, just a bit but immediately noticeable. Also, the Bryston's balanced input is way too sensitive to use with the unattenuated output from the RME (I didn't try this with the Mytek as both DACs have similar unattenuated output levels).

I would add that the analogue pre-amp in the Manhattan appears better than the BP26 (which is quite an old design). I don't know what the analogue pre-amp in the Brooklyn+ is like but it is supposed to be better than that in the original Brooklyn, which does not get close to the Manhattan.

If I were you and only had digital sources, I wouldn't bother with a pre-amp, it can only degrade the signal from your DAC whilst lightening your wallet.
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That is a real thumbs up for the RME -ADI- 2.
Sounds like all the hype around this dac might well be justified
 
Thank you. Some interesting ideas. It seems that being digital only a pre-amp is not necessary? The thread suggests it’s more ‘noise’ to get in the way? However my burning question is that the DAC is doing a pre-amp job (the volume control) but at a fraction of the cost. Either the standalone pre-amp is a stitch up or it’s doing something to be worth the additional cost?
Am I missing something?
 
Ruairi said:
Thanks Jem. I am not sure why but I have always thought the word "integrated" in terms of amps just meant that the pre & power were in one box.
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In the old sense of the word, because in years gone by, sources like tuners, tape players etc use to output small signal levels, so even in an early integrated amplifier there was still a preamp section. Nowadays with all sources being line level and much higher outputs (about 2-volts), Integrated amplifiers are basically a power amp with a volume control at the front end, effectively like a passive preamp into a power amplifier. This is a cheap way of making an integrated amplifier and saves the manufacturer money.

Having a separate active preamp section is still superior to a passive device providing volume control and there are several reasons for this. Regarding using the DAC as a preamp: there are just too many compromises. I have always found the best sound comes by fixing the DAC output on maximum or fixed output level then feeding this into a good preamplifier and controlling the volume level via your preamplifier.
 
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